Suspension Rebuild, Elephant Racing Polybronze bearings? Options

[william harris]

So the front and rear suspension are apart and being media blasted and then will be powder coated. Next issue - bushings. Has anyone used the Elephant Racing Polybronze Suspension bearings? What about the Rear Monoball cartridge? Also, the sealed front monoball cartridge? I know these items are pricey, but they certainly look to be well designed. I would appreciate anyone's comments and experiences. This is for a street car to run yellow adjustable Konis and 100 lb springs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

[Mueller]

William,

Elephant only has bushings for the front suspension for a 914 (there are 914s running his front and my rear bearings since he has re-sold my rear kits) unless he came out with something in the last few months, the rear monoball cartridge is for 911s which has a completly different suspension design.

I have no experiance with his front monoball setup, i am running one from Tarett Engineering (see vendor section)


For a more cost freindly route than my bearings for the rear*, contact Chris Foley, his is the only other setup I'd recommend next to mine.

[william harris]

Mike: Tell me about what you can offer for the rear control arms. Maybe there is a prior thread on this point. Thanks Mike. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

[JWest]

Mike: Tell me about what you can offer for the rear control arms. Maybe there is a prior thread on this point. Thanks Mike. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

Look at the link at the bottom of Mike's post.

[william harris]

Thanks, have already checked it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mike_the_man]

From what I hear Mueller's needle bearings are the shiznit! I'm saving up, and when I can afford to re-do the suspension, I will be using them.

[Britain Smith]

While we are on the topic of suspension and stuff...Mike, any progress on the 911 rear torsion bar roller bearings?

-Britain

[lapuwali]

While we're on the subject...Do the needle bearing suspension kits substantially increase road noise and shock over the OEM bits? Would these only be appropriate for a track car or would they be quiet enough for a daily driver?

[william harris]

And let's talk about maintenance issues. Per GRM these needle bearing kits need to be disassembled/cleaned periodically. Also, noisy or not? True, or what are the service needs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

[ss6]

I just installed the Elephant Racing polybronze bushings (Tarett sells 'em too). Noticeable difference from the original rubber bushings, much more "fluid" of a ride (you'll know just how flexible your tub really is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ), and the polyurethane quiets down the road noise a little bit. Hardest part of the install was getting the old rubber off (heat lamp / WD 40 / gear puller).

Started out with Mike's needles, but discovered my trailing arms were ovalled and the interior surfaces rusted after only 2 yrs on the previous (delrin) install. Had Chris Foley do his mandrel / reamer / custom delrin thing and went with the polybronze up front. Our DE schedule up here tends to be wet about half the time and even snowy / salty on occasion.

[william harris]

Thanks John that is exactly the sort of response I was looking for. Well, getting the old parts off wasn't too much trouble with a torch! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowtorch.gif)

[Mueller]

Britain, nope, no real progress...been too busy at work...I promise, it'll be real soon....gonna see some changes (for the good I hope !!!!)


The needle bearings are maintenance item, but we have had success with not doing any P/M out to 2 years.

My rear design differs from the units GRM used, I have an O-ring which is compressed upon installation and helps seal the bearings...in fact I feel that the seal is good enough that just a few weeks ago I sand blasted my engine compartment and I was not shy of where the media went (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The rear bearings can have a grease fitting installed into the trailing arm tube (best to do this with shaft removed) this way you could grease the bearings any time you want.

Noise??? I was afraid of additional noise at first.

When driving in Fiids street car that has these bearings front and rear (and adjusible Koni's, big sway bar, heavier rear springs) the ride and noise level are on par with a slightly prepped street car.

I have not had a single compliant...

Another thing to think about...years down the line, if by any chance the individual needle bearings do need replacing, they can be bought off the shelf (or from me) at a substantial cost saving. The main cost of the kits are the parts that hold and or support the bearings.

[Eric_Shea]

wasn't too much trouble with a torch!

Yeah... torch'em. Not full blast, just until you see a whiff of smoke. They slide off like snot on a glass door knob (well... maybe not that easy but...).

[Rusty]

Mike,

Weren't you checking into some kind of rubber gasket or something to cover the openings? Whatever became of that idea?

-Rusty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Jeroen]

Yep, the needle bearings need an occasional cleaning and regreasing
Use boat-trailer-wheel-bearing-grease.
Last year I sorta helped Brad clean and regrease a set that had been on a car for year
They cleaned up nice and there was no damage or wear on the bearings (street/track car)

On my 911 I had all the Elephant goodies (bronze bushings front and rear, rear monoballs and the front top strut monoball inserts).
Yes, there is some additional roadnoise, but even in my car (which was sprung pretty hard and had NO sounddampening materials left) it wasn't much.

Like Mike already said, Elephant doesn't have bronze bushings for the rear of the 914, so just get the needle bearings both front and rear.

From what I read on your planned setup, I'd advise you not to go for the front monoballs
At this moment your car is too softly sprung to benefit for them.

The front monoballs from Elephant are inserts that mount in your existing top-strut-mounts (you cut the rubber out and replace it with the monoballs)

The one from Tarett replaces the complete top-strut-mount and will allow for more negative camber settings

cheers,

Jeroen

[ArtechnikA]

The one from Tarett replaces the complete top-strut-mount and will allow for more negative camber settings

and WEVO's is -really- nice - investment-cast stainless monoball holders...

i'm -really- looking forward to getting that into the 911. unfortunately, 914's won't benefit from the carbon-fiber strut brace that adds significantly to the cost since the front bulkhead is as stiff as any brace could be. i'll be triangulating my strut brace with a fabricated bracket and a CF tube from another source...

when i'm done there will be no rubber in the suspension. and there's already darned little sound-deadening. i'll let you know about road noise :-)

(in re not stiff enough to need monoballs, i'm running 22mm front/28mm rear torsion bars, 27mm front/23mm rear antiroll bars and Bilstein 'Rallye' dambers ...)

[Brad Roberts]

Rich,

WEVO made a run of specific 914 uppers without the mounts for the carbon bar (you just wont hear them say that in a 911 forum..LOL)

I have NO idea why people think these roller bearings will create more noise in the car ?? Why would they ?? The shocks pickup any road imperfections.

I think FiiDs car is not a great example of what a street car sounds/feels like Mike..



B

[Mueller]

I plan on doing some comparisons between the two schools of thought....right now off the top of my head this what I am thinking....

there is a reason the Elp. bushings have a rubber isolator, look at the surface finish of the bronze and the metal sleeve...the friction co-ef. is higher, the tolerances have got to be much more relaxed (my front bearings have a .0005" tolerance between the bearings and the sleeve)

the figure 8 groove in the bushings is okay, but the first few times the suspension goes thru a cycle up and down, the grease is not going to flow out of the grooves to lubricate the bushings (somewhere, someone compares these bushings to the bearings of your motor...guess what?, the bearings in your motor have oil supplied to them while under pressure, so unless you have a device contantly appling pressure to the grease, it's a moot point)

ever hear of people complaining of thier worn out Weber carbs or throttle bodies?? Guess what? Bronze bushings !!!!


yes, my bearings will show signs of wear as well, there is no perfect solution, i just feel that a roller bearing will not transmit half of the noise a true metal to metal bushing will........

I'm trying not to get in a pissing match here, Chucks market is different than mine, you just have to make choice, do you want something that will work or do you want components that will work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

WEVO made a run of specific 914 uppers without the mounts for the carbon bar...

I have NO idea why people think these roller bearings will create more noise in the car ?? Why would they ??

cool deal on the upper mounts; they are very, very nice parts. i'm going to have to talk to them about getting another strut tube for triangulation - the Brey-Krause tube i got is just a little too long, i think, to go where i want it to, and i'd just as soon run two WEVO struts anyway...

why people -think- the bearings will be noisier is they believe the rubber A-Arm mounts absorb vibrations, and that anything solid will transmit more. probably that's judst generalised from areas like solid engine and transmission mounts, and other places monoballs are used in the suepension.

i'll let you know in my car, but i suspect the OEM rubber bushings in my car turned to iron years ago :-) ...