SCCA catagory for my 914-4, racing catagory 914 Options

[FastFroggy]

Hello all,

I previously ran HPDE events and autocrosses prior to my engine issue. I am now wrapping up my 914-4 rebuild and just passed my SCCA Licensing Class. Really enjoy running the car. Would like to see if there is an SCCA class I can fit it, but looks tough. Looking for guidance on the best path forward given my stated priorities:

1. SCCA regional level minimum
2. Extent of further modification needed
3. Relative competitiveness in class

My car:
a. 1973 914-4 with up to date safety items(Cage, extinguisher, seats, harness, etc)
b. 2.0l stock internals
c. race headers
d. large bore twin carbs
e. 5 lug conversion
f. 911 1973 rotors
g. 911s calipers front
h. fiberglass fender flares

Please PM me with feedback. Thanks, GregM

[GregAmy]

Oh boy, big long discussion...but let's start with WELCOME!

Second item is...download the General Competition Regulations:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Your first concern is safety: what kind of cage desgin do you have? What was it logbooked for? Different categories have different requirements. No fuel cell or fire system? Limits your options. No dash bar? Limits your options.

What tires?

At first glance at your specs, I'm not seeing an easy answer for there your car fits, but we'll find something. Some mods, such as fender flares and suspension and brake upgrades, limit your access to the lower-end classes.

The general options:

- Improved Touring. DOT tires, but requires stock induction, stock body, stock wheel bolts, stock brakes and suspension design.

- Production: slick tires and allows limited body mods, but requires fuel cell and fire system. Would have to review the 5-bolt to see if it's allowed but brakes are Ok with a weight adder. Carbs maybe OK depending on engine size.

- Grand Touring: can probably do all that but you'd require a fuel cell, fire system, and you'd get your ass handed to you by immensely faster cars.

Let's look at regional options. If you're in Ann Arbor then you're probably a member of the Detroit Region, thus Great Lakes Division (I think I found you in the membership directy...racingrabbit...)

https://www.gldscca.com/road-racing

As with many divisions, GLDiv has some local regional series, described here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K-9vOMhWmV...0xae0EJ-9v/view

I see that GL Div has both ITE and Super Production.

ITE is generally cars that were built for an old endurance series like IMSA Firehawk, but NEDiv, where I am, are very loosey-goosey with the regs; as long as you're on DOT tires and meet Improved Touring safety regs (basically cage and fire bottle), no one cares. ITE requirements are described in the above link.

SPU (under 2.5L) is similar in that it must meet Production safety regs and can run slicks. SP regs are described in the GCR, Section 9.1.C. This will require a fuel cell, dash bar, and fire system.

Note that neither of these classes would be eligible to take you to the Runoffs (which is at Road America this year). But you can race regionally.

I suggest given the level of mods you've done to your car already, SPU is the droid you're looking for. But you'll need to look into a fuel cell, fire system, and possibly upgrading the cage.

Glad to answer questions as needed, and find someone in your area who can help shepherd you through this.

Greg Amy
SCCA 110138, member since 1984
Full Competition License since 1986
National Scrutineer
National Steward
Certified F&C
Registrar
Time Trials Admin, Manager, Coach
TNIA Manager and Coach
Comp License Instructor
Race Data Tech
Purveyor of all things beer...and all around OK guy

[GregAmy]

Some updates.

I'm reviewing the regs, and the following is the fuel cell requirement (GCR 9.3.26):

"All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications, except for Touring, B-Spec, C-Spec, Spec Miata, Improved Touring, American Sedan restricted prep, production-based Vintage cars, and cars where the stock fuel tank is located between the axle center lines and within the main chassis structure (i.e., frame rails, etc.)."

I believe the stock fuel tank meets the highlighted allowance and thus should not re required.

If you choose to go with a cell, it's generally installed in the front trunk (that's where it is on my historics racer). But if I were feeling really flush...I do like this setup:

https://patrickmotorsports.com/products/fuesa914pms

As for other "safety" mods...

Roll cage: you'll need two tubes going forward to the firewall, and a lateral brace between the front legs "at the approximate level of the dashboard."

And what tires are you going to run? My car has a long history of oil starvation when we started to go to Hoosier tires in the early-00s, tossed a couple engines in the process. The resolution was dry sump. If you're going to run anything stickier than 200TW tires you might give that some thought (and I personally do not perceive an Accusump as an acceptable long-term solution to address that design shortcoming).

[FastFroggy]

Thank you GregA,

Lots of good info. I have been continuing to read and re-read the GCR as well.

I am still trying to interpret the EP rules, for which I have some specific questions. I'll PM you to continue the discussion if that is ok.

GregM

[ChrisFoley]

Regarding fuel cells, my Production car custom fuel cell is for sale. (all the race parts on my car are for sale, in fact)

[BillJ]

If going racing (circuit course not autox) then get a cell. Its a safety item. You wont regret it when you hit something and your fuel stays inside the rubber bladder of your compromised tank. Instead of dumping all over your passenger cabin and you.

Can you share pictures so that you can get best advice?

[GregAmy]

I'll PM you to continue the discussion if that is ok.

You're welcome. Let's keep the discussion public so others can chime in...?

Eprod is a fun class, but it's a motor class...and a money class. For reference, I was racing a 250whp FWD Civic in EP last couple years, and I was mid-pack. A fully-built bad-ass BMW Z3 is the ticket right now, closely tailed by a Lotus Super 7 (or is it a Caterham?) that weights nothing. I'm not say you won't have fun racing in EP, just set your expectations accordingly.

BTW, Chris, above, has a bunch of race car stuff for sale. This was an FProd 1.8L and they were competitive in the 90s. Today, FP is dominated by Miatas and FWD Hondas.

Only concern I have with your stated specs is the 5-bolt conversion; I don't think that's compliant. Will anyone GAS, especially in regional racing? Probably not. But here's the other argument: "914-6 calipers & discs allowed". Does that mean you vcan convert to 5-bolt? It sure implies it...

Also note you have to run 38mm venturis.

I'm pretty sure the Fiberglas flareds are allowed, given fenders can be replaced with alternate material and flares are allowed. 15x7 wheels max.

have you pursued your Novice Permit yet? I checked the records and it's not listed. If not, we need to work to get you a safe car so you can get on the track.

GA

[FastFroggy]

BillJ, you bring up a very good point. The 914 is not ideal for its fuel tank proximity to cabin ventilation. I think at a minimum vent block-offs.

Reminder on the objective:
- local track Waterford Hills
- competitive at Regional Level

To fill in some of the background on the car:

Previously ITA logbook(lost to time, with passing of owner), bought in Colorado.
-8 pt cage, Nascar-ish door bars ( will be adding a lower diagonal across the main hoop based on 914 racer friend experience)
-rear chassis stiffening
-15in wheels 7"/8"
-external oil cooler / accusump
-deep sump
-2.0 l stock block for now
-44mm dual carbs
-5 lug conversion
-S caliper front
-1973 911 front and rear rotors

https://youtu.be/5xtbZOsLZWA?si=pjlslyJ7yapuDNB_

GregM

[brant]

You should probably show us a picture

I might even know some history on it
The problem is the big bore

[GregAmy]

Previously ITA logbook(lost to time) out in Colorado.

If you look on the right side vertical leg of the main hoop, there should be a number stamped into the rollcage. If it was caged in Colorado Region it should start with 8 or 08.

Regardless, get that number for me and I can investigate its history. We might be able to re-logbook it with that number. - GA

[ChrisFoley]

EP will restrict you to 7x15 wheels, 40mm carbs, and M calipers.
5 lug not a problem.

[GregAmy]

Chris, we have a new brake rule in Prod, think it came in 2023...the alternate brakes listed on the spec line are allowed without penalty, but now you can add up-to-4-piston calipers and unrestricted rotors for a +2% weight adder (must fit within the allowed wheels).

I think I'm with you on the 5-bolt conversion though it certainly doesn't explicitly come out and SAY you can do it...and the baseline premise of the category is 9.1.5.D.1:

"An addition, modification, substitution or removal, must not be made unless specifically authorized."

In this case, it explicitly allowed the /6 calipers and rotors, so the onyl reasonable way one can do that is with a 5-bolt conversion. So I support it.

I'm just curious if the CRB is aware one is 4-bolt and teh other is 5-bolt...

BTW, I've tried to get the 2L Limited Prep 914 moved from FProd to HProd but they're fraidy skeered of it (despite several 2L Golfs being in there). I don't see the 2L being able to compete with the Miatas in FP. So if I were serious about racing a 914 in Prod I'd build a LP 1.8L for HP and convert it to Microquirt. - GA

[FastFroggy]

Thanks for all the insight. Really appreciate it.

- Have an SCCA Race Novice Permit.
- PM'd Chris about a fuel cell
- Stamp on cage is 50-07009
- Looking at the cage, I will need to verify about the upper diagonal. Probably to add with the lower.
- yep. 7x15s, M Calipers and 40mm webers on the list
- photos to follow in next day or so. reestablishing my drop box/photobucket accounts

Question: PCR indicates only rotor diameter with no mention of solid or vented. are vented rotos ok as long as they meet the diameter? or is of a weight penalty?

[GregAmy]

Do you have your schools signed off yet? What's the plan?

- Stamp on cage is 50-07009

That was issued by Region 50, Utah Region. Their web site is sparse, but you can send them a note to utahscca@outlook.com and see if anyone can identify that logbook number. If they can, we could possibly re-issue it with that old number.

https://www.utahscca.com/

However, except for posterity's sake, there's not a lot of usefulness versus getting the car re-inspected and issued a new logbook. It would be cool info to have but is not required.

Question: PCR indicates only rotor diameter...

I think you mean GCR (SCCA or do you mean Porsche Club)? With SCCA, you can run one of two brake configs in EP:

- "Front “M” calipers permitted, 914-6 calipers & discs allowed" (whatever size and config they are) with no weight penalty; or
- Any 4-piston caliper and any rotor that fits within the allowed 15x7 wheel, with a 2% weight adder (GCR 9.1.5.E.7)

[FastFroggy]

Yes, I have my school signed off.

Plan is to have fun, race hard, be competitive. Target is to finish engine install and track ready by end of May. Make vintage event at WaterfordHills in late August. Investigating to run SCCA road race series.

Utah SCCA: I already contacted them a few years ago with no real feedback.

Yes GCR, which refers to PCR for Production Competitions Rules(i guess)

I need to check the front rotor specs, but at least the rears on a 914-6 were solids i believe. I run vented 911 rear rotors(aka 916 rear). Would it just be a 2% weight penalty or NOK?. Same question for front "S" caliper?

[ChrisFoley]

914-6 has vented front and solid rear rotors. Using 914-6 front calipers/rotors requires use of 5 lug hubs - ie. 914-6 struts.
Old Prod regs allowed 914-4 front calipers at the rear. I kept stock rear calipers, but gutted the parking brake and manual adjustment components.

[FastFroggy]

batter batter swing..... on photos. Will take a day or two.

A few side notes:

I was looking at old photos, and I was wrong. Previous car markings show that it was in ITE-U.

Will be studying to see how different prep is a and local competition.

[Charles Freeborn]

... then there's vintage. You'd be in VP2 I believe with the 2.0L

[brant]

... then there's vintage. You'd be in VP2 I believe with the 2.0L

what is the displacement again?
don't think you have said..
gather its bigger than 2.0

that is your largest barrier most likely.
brant

[GregAmy]

what is the displacement again?

For historics racing? Show me the last time a car was scrutineers to the regs.

And when you do, and you like that? I'll suggest it's WICKED too "srs bzns" and I'd strongly suggest you stay with the SCCA and its better insurance.

Historics racing is a whole 'nother attitude from amateur club racing. At least, it's supposed to be...

GA, who does both, for their individual goals and attitudes.