Sway Bar Question Options

[Osnabruck914]

Well, the other day I noticed my '74 2.0 had something dangling underneath. Sure enough, those cheap nylon rear sway bar downlink bushings had failed again. I did not have any replacement bushings on hand, and with a car show coming up the next day, I just decided to remove the whole rear sway bar assembly until I could order and receive new bushings.

Driving without the rear sway bar, I was surprised to note that the car felt lighter and more responsive at the wheel. What's going on here? I thought having both bars was always a better option. Is it a psychological thing or is it real. Should I leave the rear bar off? I do not drive that aggressively nor do I autocross or rally.

I have read that it is not Kosher to drive with only a rear bar installed, but OK with just the front. Is that true?

Osnabruck914

[Shivers]

I know some owners here run a front bar only. Some run both. I like front and rear, but like you said no auto-X no rally

[morehills]

My car feels great without a rear sway bar. Less weight, no significant roll. I do have a front sway bar. Drive it a while without then decide.

[Superhawk996]

Complex answer.

It is partially psychological. To the extent that what you are feeling is how body roll relates to weight transfer and how that relates to steering response.

Contrary to popular belief, a car that has no body roll generally isn’t fun to drive. I’m excluding the extreme ends of the spectrum here like F1 / race cars with aerodynamic aids, etc.

Removing the rear bar is going to bias the vehicle more toward under steer as you push the vehicle harder. A vehicle that under steers generally is the safer default and is the way OEMs tend to tune towards.

[sixaddict]

I have run a 914-6/for longer than I would like to admit…..I have never run a rear bar.
I know a guy that did who was very fast….but so was I.
I do feel there is a personal preference but you heard mine.
A 100=years ago Tom Green of Automotion did extensive development and testing, I do not believe he ever found rear bars advantageous.
Betting you will find some people who like them.

[Superhawk996]

Had this in another thread but equally relevant here as recommended reading.

[Osnabruck914]

I really appreciate all the great replies and info. You have all persuaded me to leave the rear bar off for a month or so to really get a feel for its absence; then make a final decision.

Osnabruck914

[ClayPerrine]

I will say this first:

It's your car. If you like the way it drives without the rear bar, then run it that way.


I have driven 914s both with and without a rear bar. I think the engineers that designed the 914 and its sway bar system are way smarter than I am. So I run a rear bar.

[sixaddict]

Not to beg the question because Clay is smarter than me…..
My only question is why bars were not installed on all cars by the factory ….yeah I know costs……but

Tom Green and Dwight Mitchell were some of the fastest autocrossers in the Bay Area which set a lot of performance standards back in the day …..the golden age of 914s. They settled on no rear bars ……I believe.
Wondering if someone said that about Carroll Shelby.
Relax all …..just sayin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Superhawk996]

Here’s the thing, any discussion of bars vs no bars is entirely dependent on how the rest of the suspension is set up as well as driver preference.

What is good for the track or auto crossing is not necessarily the best compromise for street use.

Many vehicles of the era came without anti roll bars. Bars were often part of a sport package or heavy duty suspension upgrade as options.

Keep in mind that vehicles of the era were not subject to the same stability scrutiny as we have today. It would be virtually impossible to release a vehicle with the handling characteristics of the early 911 into today’s litigious environment.

[Olympic 914]

I know some of the Jeep guys run a front sway bar disconnect for when crazy offroading.

Should not be too hard to adapt something like that to the rear sway bar links on the 914.

I have thought of this often, just haven't done anything on it yet...

Would be a possibility to disconnect it for AX the reconnect back for street running.

[Geezer914]

What rear springs are you running? My set up is 140# springs in the rear, 19 mm torsion bars in front with a 3/4" addco sway bar up front. No rear sway bar.

[ClayPerrine]

I will ad this.

You can run no bar in the rear. But to do so, you have to run stiffer springs to compensate for it.

I prefer to run a rear bar and softer rear springs.

[rfinegan]

I'm running 120 rear and the factory rear bar. nice ride quality with factory torsion bars up from and a 19 sway bar
front

[Olympic 914]

I'm running 120 rear and the factory rear bar. nice ride quality with factory torsion bars up from and a 19 sway bar
front

Running the same setup But 125# springs.

[technicalninja]

Well, the other day I noticed my '74 2.0 had something dangling underneath. Sure enough, those cheap nylon rear sway bar downlink bushings had failed again. I did not have any replacement bushings on hand, and with a car show coming up the next day, I just decided to remove the whole rear sway bar assembly until I could order and receive new bushings.

Driving without the rear sway bar, I was surprised to note that the car felt lighter and more responsive at the wheel. What's going on here? I thought having both bars was always a better option. Is it a psychological thing or is it real. Should I leave the rear bar off? I do not drive that aggressively nor do I autocross or rally.

I have read that it is not Kosher to drive with only a rear bar installed, but OK with just the front. Is that true?

Osnabruck914

What you are describing with "car felt lighter and more responsive at the wheel" is how "loose or tight" the car was.

Loose equals more body roll and steering inputs "feel" more pronounced as they create more movement in your torso (due the increased roll). You "lean" more.

Tight means less roll and smaller suspension angle changes creating more grip.

Loose normally gives more "feedback" up to the point of losing traction (spinning) and is easier for most folks to control.

Loose broadcasts its intentions.

Tight is better for control under high load conditions right up to the point it breaks loose.
It gives you less warnings!

In the case of a street driven basically stock 914 that the owner is not using for combat (competition) the rear bar is not mandatory.

As not having the bar reduces strain on the trunk pan, I'd probably leave it off, especially if the trunk pan was rusty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

You might test no bars...

Leave the rear off, disco one side of the front, drive it, see what you think.

You could then connect just the rear bar and see if the legends are true...
I've never tried rear only myself on anything.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

without the rear bar the car understeers which is much more comfortable for most drivers, When you enter a curve, you steer then steer some more and feel in control, with a rear bar, the car turns maybe more than you think it will and to some very disconcerting

Well, the other day I noticed my '74 2.0 had something dangling underneath. Sure enough, those cheap nylon rear sway bar downlink bushings had failed again. I did not have any replacement bushings on hand, and with a car show coming up the next day, I just decided to remove the whole rear sway bar assembly until I could order and receive new bushings.

Driving without the rear sway bar, I was surprised to note that the car felt lighter and more responsive at the wheel. What's going on here? I thought having both bars was always a better option. Is it a psychological thing or is it real. Should I leave the rear bar off? I do not drive that aggressively nor do I autocross or rally.

I have read that it is not Kosher to drive with only a rear bar installed, but OK with just the front. Is that true?

Osnabruck914

[sixaddict]

That is very true and probably makes ride much better.

I will ad this.

You can run no bar in the rear. But to do so, you have to run stiffer springs to compensate for it.

I prefer to run a rear bar and softer rear springs.

[jcd914]

Not to beg the question because Clay is smarter than me…..
My only question is why bars were not installed on all cars by the factory ….yeah I know costs……but

Tom Green and Dwight Mitchell were some of the fastest autocrossers in the Bay Area which set a lot of performance standards back in the day …..the golden age of 914s. They settled on no rear bars ……I believe.
Wondering if someone said that about Carroll Shelby.
Relax all …..just sayin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I worked for Dwight for seven years and tested many of Tom Greens products before they made it to market.
When I went to work for Dwight I had 10 years of Porsche/Audi dealership experience but none of it include Auto-x or time trial setup, just standard alignments and stock parts and very few 914's at dealers then.
Dwight taught me how & why he set up the cars and I set up many 911's, 944's and 914's for auto-x and/or time trial.
Depending on what the customer wanted, we often used heavier rear springs , larger front T-bars and an adjustable front sway bar to balance the car.
Dwight's preference was to use spring rates to control most of the body roll and a sway bars to balance and tune to fit the driver style.
We did not have a standard set-up, every set up was planned for the customer base on the car and what they wanted to do with and what they were or were not willing to compromise.

I am not currently running a rear sway bar on my 914 but have a stock rear bar I plan to try it out sometime.

Jim

[Superhawk996]

We did not have a standard set-up, every set up was planned for the customer base on the car and what they wanted to do with and what they were or were not willing to compromise.

As it should be