Oil leak behind flywheel I can't find Options

[tracer]

Hi all, have an oil leak that I have been trying to fix for over a month and 4 main seals. Symptom is oil coming from hole between transmission and case. My first thought were that I needed to replace the main crank seal, well long story, when this thing is leaking it seems you need to to drive at freeway speed for a little while and when you stop and look under the car the entire passenger side has oil slung on the roof and all over the trans and muffler, but only on the passenger side. Today removed the transmission and the inside cavity is covered with oil, this is engine oil and not gear oil. Removed the flywheel and seal looked dry?? Have been cleaning and scanning for anyplace oil could come from. Seems like the drivers side case shell is moist with oil and passenger side is dry. This should be an easy fix but I can't think of another place to check. Could I have a micro crack and oil leaking out under pressure from an oil galley? The oil galley plug on drivers side has been epoxied in and the passenger side has been tapped and plugged. Help!!!

[Cap'n Krusty]

You don't mention the flywheel o-ring. Have you replaced it?

The Cap'n

[Lennies914]

Is there oil dripping off of the oil filter? This was happening to me. After eliminating the oil filter I realized that the oil cooler seals were leaking. Here is the kicker of the story though, for the first time in my life, I tried a "fix in a can" and it worked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) . I stopped at an auto parts store to pick up a quart of Lucas 15/40 to add a quart. They didn't carry Lucas motor oil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) . My wife spotted a quart of Lucas "seal conditioner" so I grabbed it. I figured WTF, after all I didn't want to add a quart of anything different since it was a fresh oil change running the Lucas synthetic. After about a 90 mile drive home, no oil leak. That was over a month ago and still no oil leak. This may not help you but I really wanted to share my story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . I typically don't have such luck.

[96740]

I've had the same leak in my car ever since I bought it. Even after I had the engine rebuilt the leak is still there. The builder said he would take care of it while he was in there but I guess not. In my case It's some sort of freeze plug type thing in the engine case. Not sure why it can't just be JB welded it or other but man it's irritating.

Matthias at German Meister says he has dealt with the problem before and when he has the tranny out for the rebuild he will take care of it. I'm defiantly going to get up close and take pics of this thing for reference.

[tracer]

You don't mention the flywheel o-ring. Have you replaced it?

The Cap'n

Yes, I did replaced the little O-ring that goes on the inside of the flywheel, this seems to be alot of oil with the mess and all but 1500 miles and just down a quart.

[tracer]

Is there oil dripping off of the oil filter? This was happening to me. After eliminating the oil filter I realized that the oil cooler seals were leaking. Here is the kicker of the story though, for the first time in my life, I tried a "fix in a can" and it worked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) . I stopped at an auto parts store to pick up a quart of Lucas 15/40 to add a quart. They didn't carry Lucas motor oil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) . My wife spotted a quart of Lucas "seal conditioner" so I grabbed it. I figured WTF, after all I didn't want to add a quart of anything different since it was a fresh oil change running the Lucas synthetic. After about a 90 mile drive home, no oil leak. That was over a month ago and still no oil leak. This may not help you but I really wanted to share my story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . I typically don't have such luck.

The front of the engine is totally dry as are the oil cooler and all the push rod tube seals, Lennie, we met a month ago at the donut/deli (Sacramento 914 club) gathering in Fair Oaks. You brought a Yellow car and I had the Marathon Blue one.

[Jake Raby]

I bet you are using Elring main seals, aren't you?

These seals have a known issue, we have sent corresspondence to all major suppliers of them stating that they are improperly made resulting in seal after seal being applied with no luck.

We learned this back in early summer, others are still selling the Elring seals knowing they have issues.

The answer is a Victor Reinz seal.

[tracer]

I bet you are using Elring main seals, aren't you?

These seals have a known issue, we have sent corresspondence to all major suppliers of them stating that they are improperly made resulting in seal after seal being applied with no luck.

We learned this back in early summer, others are still selling the Elring seals knowing they have issues.

The answer is a Victor Reinz seal.

How can you tell what the manufacture of the seal is, I will look on the new ones I bought..

[tracer]

I bet you are using Elring main seals, aren't you?

These seals have a known issue, we have sent corresspondence to all major suppliers of them stating that they are improperly made resulting in seal after seal being applied with no luck.

We learned this back in early summer, others are still selling the Elring seals knowing they have issues.

The answer is a Victor Reinz seal.

How can you tell what the manufacture of the seal is, I will look on the new ones I bought..

OK, bought a couple from your webstore Jake, I really hope it takes care of this issue.

[Borderline]

I bet you are using Elring main seals, aren't you?

These seals have a known issue, we have sent corresspondence to all major suppliers of them stating that they are improperly made resulting in seal after seal being applied with no luck.

We learned this back in early summer, others are still selling the Elring seals knowing they have issues.

The answer is a Victor Reinz seal.

How can you tell what the manufacture of the seal is, I will look on the new ones I bought..

The Victor Reinz is orange in color for the flywheel seal. The front seal is black, but the box says Victor Reinz

[tracer]

Still waiting on seal from Jake Raby's Store, hopefully will arrive tomorrow and I will find out if this will ever get fixed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[realred914]

has Tracer traced the problem down yet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[realred914]

GoWesty website has a write up on the engine seal issues on wasserboxer and aircooled VW van motors , applicable info there. info speaks truth to power!!!!(or some silly shit like that) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

(sorry new computer i use does not allow me to copy/paste websites for some reason, look it up cuase they gots photos also )

from them: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Flywheel or "Rear Main" Seal Story

All seals are equal, but some seals are more equal than others.

The "rear main seal" on VW flat four engines (all of them) does not actually seal against the crankshaft. Instead, the flywheel bolts to the back of the crankshaft with an O-ring in between, and the lip seal (pictured) seals against a polished surface on the flywheel. The flywheel seal on all 72-79 Buses and all years of the Vanagon air and water cooled flat four engines (not diesel, which is just a Rabbit/Jetta diesel engine) all have the same outside diameter (OD) and inside diameter (ID). All the seals we measured had the same OD and ID. However, the thickness (front to back, or width) were different on two of them, and on one (the dealer part, and of course the most expensive by a factor of about 10) had a substantially larger diameter spring wire diameter (22%). Why are we talking about this?


An Aftermarket seal on the left, OEM seal on the right.

Well the most common problem we have to address on the waterboxer engines we build are flywheel seal leaks. This has been a reoccurring problem for years. There are probably some of our engine customers reading this that know what I am talking about. I had to replace the one on my own 2.5 a couple of weeks ago. We have gone out of our way to make sure every flywheel we install not only gets the thrust surface ground perfectly smooth and square, but everyone gets the sealing surface polished to practically a mirror finish. Even still, one in twenty our of engines, or so, would LEAK! I just figured there must me something up with the seal.

So, I decided to buy one of every seal we could get our hands on. In the process of my investigation, I heard all sorts of theories, like "you gotta use this super gee-wiz goop", or "You gotta put it in with a golden hammer", or "You gotta use the factory VW, OEM seal only available at the dealer for ten time the cost". I had no trouble believing everything I was told, except the last one. I KNEW that was BS...




Well, good thing I did not bet any money. Sure as $#%@, the damn VW dealer-only seal is the bomb bitch seal! It was actually Randall in the shop that pointed the difference out to me. Randall has not been here a year yet, so I did not know whether he was BS'ing me or not, so I had to go through this exercise. Sorry Randall, I should have just listened to you in the first place. What's that? Double your pay to show my appreciation? Oh, I mean, yea, yea, I already knew about the seal thing, I thought we were talking about the seal problem in the Morro Bay harbor. Sorry, my bad....

Anyway, what we found was that the common seal that comes in ALL the gasket kits has two problems. The first is that they are too narrow (width), front to back. So, when you install them in a Waterboxer, you can put them in too far, not far enough, or catty-wompus (that's Randall's technical jargon for eccentrically mis-aligned). We found one seal that was the correct thickness, a Victor-Reinz part that was all orange, and sold separately--in it's own box and everything. Interestingly, it is NOT the same seal that is included in the Victor-Reinz full engine gasket set. Go figure. So we thought, viola! We don't have to buy the stupid expensive seal at VW. WRONG. What Randall correctly pointed out is that the OE VW seal comes designed with a considerably heavier spring. None of the other seals have a spring nearly as heavy. Kudos, Randall.

What is even more interesting about this VW dealer only seal is that, A) It is all black and, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) It is made in Brazil (SABO brand). These two traits are typically what we refer in the industry as, well, CRAP. But, you can't argue with success, right?

So, we bought every seal VW had in the United States. Starting about five engines ago, we have switched to the VW dealer only seal. We are keeping track of which engines have them with an extra "dot" next to the engine displacement stamp we put on each GoWesty engine. Let's see if the seal is worth it. If it turns out to be the fix, I may have a trip to Rio De Janeiro in my future...

For now, if you need a flywheel seal for your waterboxer (029-105-245), we got them for $29.95 In fact, last I checked with VW, we got ALL of them! Click here to grab a new Rear Main Seal.

Cheers.




Back to Library

[tracer]

OK,

I am really bummed now. Replaced the seal with the Victor Reinz orange seal from Jake Raby Store and sucker is still leaking. I must have a hairline crack in the block/oil galley behind the flywheel I can't seem to find or see. Also this doesn't seem to fail until oil temp gets above 180 to 210.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[realred914]

OK,

I am really bummed now. Replaced the seal with the Victor Reinz orange seal from Jake Raby Store and sucker is still leaking. I must have a hairline crack in the block/oil galley behind the flywheel I can't seem to find or see. Also this doesn't seem to fail until oil temp gets above 180 to 210.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

ok here is what to do to find a hairline crack in the case.

1... clean the rear of the case area real well, degrease , rinse, dry. use a brush to clean out all potential cracks.

2. put some paint thinner in a spray bottle and lightly cover the whole surface to be tested (or use a bottle and brush to spread a thin layer)

3. genlty wipe it down to dry the surface, after a short soak period.

4. immediatly after surface wipe down, blow a dust layer of FINE crushed chaulk or baby powder on the entire dried surface.

5. areas of crack that have soaked up the paint thinner will appear as a spreading wet mark in the thin dust layer. use a bright light to inspect.

I have used this technique several times to find cracks, kind of a do it your self magnetflux test.

if you have a substantial crack, this can find it. pay closest attention to areas backed by oil passages. you may want to repeat this several times with varius times between drying and powder application as this can effect resolution of the test.




other option i have used is a flouresent dye added to oil, Rich sold me a small bottle of it years ago at High Performance House 650 364-6234 just clean the area, add a ounce or so to the oil, run the car, let it cool then in a dark area shine a black light on the suspect areas and look for a green / yellow glow. of course since your leak would require running the engine and then an engine pull to inspect the suspect area, with this method, it would be a labor intesive test.




(IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Sounds like a leaky galley plug or cam plug.. What oil are you using?

[tracer]

Sounds like a leaky galley plug or cam plug.. What oil are you using?

10/30w Castrol GTX

[tradisrad]

I had a mystery leak and as I recall oil was coming from the left lower stud for the trans. The stud hole was going into the case. It was hard to find and easy to fix with some loctite. I cant find the picture now as the power cord for my external drive is MIA.

[realred914]

you did read that the victor -reinz seal is not good per go westy? excerpt below:

"Anyway, what we found was that the common seal that comes in ALL the gasket kits has two problems. The first is that they are too narrow (width), front to back. So, when you install them in a Waterboxer, you can put them in too far, not far enough, or catty-wompus (that's Randall's technical jargon for eccentrically mis-aligned). We found one seal that was the correct thickness, a Victor-Reinz part that was all orange, and sold separately--in it's own box and everything. Interestingly, it is NOT the same seal that is included in the Victor-Reinz full engine gasket set. Go figure. So we thought, viola! We don't have to buy the stupid expensive seal at VW. WRONG. What Randall correctly pointed out is that the OE VW seal comes designed with a considerably heavier spring. None of the other seals have a spring nearly as heavy. Kudos, Randall.

What is even more interesting about this VW dealer only seal is that, A) It is all black and, It is made in Brazil (SABO brand). These two traits are typically what we refer in the industry as, well, CRAP. But, you can't argue with success, right?

So, we bought every seal VW had in the United States. Starting about five engines ago, we have switched to the VW dealer only seal. We are keeping track of which engines have them with an extra "dot" next to the engine displacement stamp we put on each GoWesty engine. Let's see if the seal is worth it. If it turns out to be the fix, I may have a trip to Rio De Janeiro in my future...

For now, if you need a flywheel seal for your waterboxer (029-105-245), we got them for $29.95 In fact, last I checked with VW, we got ALL of them! Click here to grab a new Rear Main Seal.

[realred914]

Sounds like a leaky galley plug or cam plug.. What oil are you using?

10/30w Castrol GTX

kind of thin oil unless you live where it is very cold. moderate temps i use 20w-50. San fransisco bay area weather.

do you have an oil pressure gage if so, whats it read for pressure fully warmed up at a given rpm?