Pissed off: Alignment got screwed i believe, nned to talk to someone knowledgeable. Options

[Aaron Cox]

ok... so my car has a new 911 front end. M calipers *new* turbo tie rods *new* ball joints etc. everything is NEW. i need to get it aligned.

go to a place that does JUST alignment and BRAKES. so here goes.

I gave him the specs of what i wanted (previous alignmnet thread) camber caster and toe.

he does the toe to 1/16th like spec's. says he cant do camber (something about raising one side, thinks he knows how the torsion bar system works [he doesnt] and and cant do caster too. says because car is lowered) . the car is running stock tires and is BARELY lowered up front.

I believe he misadjusted the turbo tie rods. (he unscrewed them from the rack i believe and used the lock nut to hold the length. dont you have to take off the cotter pin, pop out the tierod end, and rotate the whole tie rod end? you cant unscrew the rack end can you?

i pointed out to the where you adjust camber and caster (opened hood and ponted to the tops of the strut on the fender well!!!) so i have uneven left to right camber and caster, he didnt even do that.

i got charged 25.00 for toe in adjustment.

im gonna go yell at him and get my money back, if im right about how he adjusted the turbo tie rods.

please respond ASAP so i can get back to this idiot!

[Aaron Cox]

edit: ok...i looked at a picture of turbo tie rods and the adjustment he did was fine. but my steering wheel is way off center (35 degrees). and im mad that he didnt do camber or caster! anyone in socal know of a good alignment place?

[ArtechnikA]

I believe he misadjusted the turbo tie rods. (he unscrewed them from the rack i believe and used the lock nut to hold the length. dont you have to take off the cotter pin, pop out the tierod end, and rotate the whole tie rod end? you cant unscrew the rack end can you?

are you saying he removed the belly pan and adjusted them AT THE RACK?

probably not...

no, you do not remove tie rod ends from the steering arm to adjust them.

you loosen the locknut and turn the rod. it's a turnbuckle, like antiroll bar droplinks...

[ArtechnikA]

...my steering wheel is way off center (35 degrees)...

could be it was off before and it's right now. centralise the rack (count turns lock-to-lock, come back half that many. if the wheel looks like it does now, it was wrong before - pull the wheel and remount it.

there's no excuse for not knowing how to align a MacPherson strut car, but if he doesn't know how better he left it alone, don't you think ? $25 doesn't sound bad for a toe adjust if it's right...

did you go in with half-a-tank of fuel? did you bring driver's weight to put in the driver's seat during adjustment ?

[Aaron Cox]

yes. i conceded that he adjusted them correctly above. i had to see a picture before i knew for sure.

do you do toe adjustments before or after the camber/caster adjustment

[Aaron Cox]

...my steering wheel is way off center (35 degrees)...

could be it was off before and it's right now. centralise the rack (count turns lock-to-lock, come back half that many. if the wheel looks like it does now, it was wrong before - pull the wheel and remount it.

there's no excuse for not knowing how to align a MacPherson strut car, but if he doesn't know how better he left it alone, don't you think ? $25 doesn't sound bad for a toe adjust if it's right...

did you go in with half-a-tank of fuel? did you bring driver's weight to put in the driver's seat during adjustment ?

yes, had my 150 lb friend in drivers seat, and a half tank of gas.

the doofus said he couldnt do the camber/caster because "you can only get so much,..... the car is lowered.....blah blah blah) im askin for -1.1 degerees! one side is at like -2.3 and the other is at -1.5 ... didnt even bother to do caster check. i watched the screen of the alignment thing while my friend was in the car being dead weight.

steering wheel- all he did was put it centered before adjustment, no counting turns etc, just centered it and went to work. came out 35 degrees to the right

[ArtechnikA]

yes. i conceded that he adjusted them correctly above. i had to see a picture before i knew for sure.

do you do toe adjustments before or after the camber/caster adjustment

i believe after would be best, but i'd have to go read up on the preferred procedure...

(you edited your original post and i replied before the edit was live ...)

it's almost always possible to get LESS negative camber - most people want more. -2,3 is a lot for a car that hasn't been lowered much unless the spindle is bent. i donno. clearly yo have no confidence in this place and need a referral to some place you can trust. i used to know some SoCal names and places but you need information from some people with current information.

good job on the driver weight and fuel.

[seanery]

Aaron,
Johnson's alignment is THE shop. They are in Redondo Beach at 190th & Hawthorne.

They do a lot of Porsches, many, many race cars. They will ask you how you use the car and align and corner balance (if you want) accordingly.

[TheCabinetmaker]

I was a Chrysler factory trained, dealership alignment specialist for two years. Toe is the last thing to check before the road test and centering the wheel.

25 is ok for a toe scruff, but its wasted money if the caster and camber weren't done first. Disclaimer: This was in the 70's, but I believe the fundamentals are still the same.

He just didn't want to spend the time to do it right and didn't care. He probably had a Honda waiting that would pay the same for half the work.

[MattR]

Its better then my friend who took his wrx to Discount Tire in Long Beach, CA. They charged him 20 bucks to put wheels on the car (no jack in the dorms here), then another 70 for alignment. I looked over the spec sheet they gave him, and it was all off! I asked them and they said all they could adjust was the toe. They had parameters, like -.15/.15 set by the factory, and they had it set to like -.14 on one side and .10 on the other. Total BS. I asked them about it and they said thats how its supposed to be and it doesnt matter. I got angry and told them it could result in eneven handling characteristics, but they already got his money. 70 bucks for a whack toe adjustment. NEVER go to Discount Tire in Long Beach CA.

[anthony]

This just illustrates that you have to go to a Porsche specialist for things like this. Job Bob's alignment shop is not worth the pain and suffering you'll endure.

[nebreitling]

i got fucked by a firestone once trying to get a "deal" on my 914's alignment.

i use custom alignment now. not cheap, but a great alignment.

[0396]

I would suggest you take it to McKenna's in Norwalk.
Near the 605 and the 5 frwy and aske for Stan Reed.
He's one of the best around.
He also has a 914 too. Stans one of a few handful of Porsche
Techs that have actually been sent to PCNA to be trained
on how to properly work on the CGT.

Also, they currently have a special on alignments now @ 200+ ..usual price at this dealer is 400+..
Ask me how I know.

Steve's place in Torrance is also good, but don't get upset if
he charges you more than you might think..ask me how I KNOW... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

at my level of performance, i can still do just as good a job as i require at home. it's not rocket science... anything you can do with a plumb bob (fancy rock), string, and a ruler is not rocket science. having a level playing field is (kind of) important, and for this purpose, i do have an 8' level and a big stack of 1/8" thick floor tiles (1/8" is close enough to level for our cars...)

a simple magnetic angle finder (available at Sears and Harbor Freight) will get you real darned close on camber and caster. i did spend $20 for a toe gauge, but it just makes the job faster - not better.

especially if you're just doing the front. or the rear. (aligning the rear with the front and compensating for thrust angles is more complicated.)

cornerweighting requires some kind of actual scale, no amount of measuring deflections will get you close.

when i had the "local" guys align the GTI on their fancy computerised rack, they got all manner of lovely measurements. then they use their impact wrench on the eccentric bolt nuts and stripped them completely.

having a place you can trust is nice - if you don't mind paying the price. having the knowledge and patience to do it yourself is priceless...

[John]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

at my level of performance, i can still do just as good a job as i require at home. it's not rocket science... anything you can do with a plumb bob (fancy rock), string, and a ruler is not rocket science. having a level playing field is (kind of) important, and for this purpose, i do have an 8' level and a big stack of 1/8" thick floor tiles (1/8" is close enough to level for our cars...)

This is what I have been doing for the last 10 years. (Since I moved away from my friend in Chicagoland who let me use his alignment rack {I had worked in his shop}).

As for corner balancing, I made a set of "Ruggles" scales after looking at the picture in RacerStore Catalog. They are simply pivot arms (levers and fulcrums) that divide the weight by either 2 or 4 (depending on where the tire is placed on the lever arm). These use bathroom scales. I use a known weight to calibrate the 4 identical bathroom scales prior to doing the work, and I have had excellent results. When I still lived in the Chicago area, I checked my corner balancing to actual dedicated scales and my results were always within 4 lbs of the readings from the expensive scales.

For my home alignment, I have replaced the "strings" with laser levels (the laser beams don't sag or blow in the wind like strings can).

[Freedom]

so i am alignment trained and here goes. the guy will use the comptuer and he will adjust all of the camber and caster first. some cars do not have the caster adjustments on the top of the strut. mostly all cars are the same. the guy was a retard. but basically i am agreeing with the concensus here he could have adjsuted the cars specs right. he probably had the car set up to comparing the factory specs as opposed to setting everything to zero.

the tech would have to choose set to zero, then adjust off of that. you might have measurements based off of the stock requirements.

the alignment rack will not take into account a sagging spring or be able to tell if the ride height is messed up. adjusting the torsion bars would only change the ride height and maybe effect the camber because it changes the suspension geometry.

well that is my .02 i hope it helped you understand the idea of alignment better.

[Aaron Cox]

yeah, i figured i got ass raped on this deal. car doesnt even want to drive completely straight. camber and caster are off still (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) . im sure i could do a better job with his rack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

discount wanted 60 bucks for alignmnet because its a porche (one syllable to them lol)

25.00 isnt all that bad, but to me, student, it sucks. every little bit is something.

i was at don and Glens precision motors for the swapmeet, i forgot, do they have an alignment rack? they do p car stuff all the time.

still need to get job done.

[nebreitling]

HA!! you're complaining about having to pay for a $60 alignment? i know you're a student (so am i), but that's cheap, bro. i'd love to find a place that would align my 914 (correctly) for $60.

and for $25, i wouldn't expect them to do anything BUT screw it up. of course you got ass raped. that's what people do for 25 bucks...

lmao... bite the bullet, take it to a real shop. get it done once, get it done right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spank.gif)

[TimT]

(the laser beams don't sag or blow in the wind like strings can).

yea and you dont trip over them and look like and ass... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

HA!! you're complaining about having to pay for a $60 alignment? i know you're a student (so am i), but that's cheap, bro. i'd love to find a place that would align my 914 (correctly) for $60.

and for $25, i wouldn't expect them to do anything BUT screw it up. of course you got ass raped. that's what people do for 25 bucks...

lmao... bite the bullet, take it to a real shop. get it done once, get it done right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spank.gif)

oh man, i havent laughed that hard in a while. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ,

i have learned the following:
assraping comes in at the tune of 25.00 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
get a car aligned at a real shop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)