First start after 25 years - problems Options

[spencercanon]

Hi all this is my first post here! I recently picked up a ’75 1.8 that was last registered in 2001! Pretty good barn find, in my opinion. It was up in the high desert of California, so no rust, great mechanicals, all the electrics work. Just flaking paint, decayed interior …and an engine that probably hasn’t run since the Clinton Administration.

The TLDR is the car has started and run for 10 seconds but now won’t start at all.

A quick timeline of what I’ve done/tested:
- Dropped the engine, adjusted valves (encountered something strange that I’ll ask about later)
- Old starter could barely turn the engine over. Replaced it with a hi-torque.
- good compression
- Replaced the old broken bellows thermostat
- New fuel lines, vac lines, spark plugs and wires
- deleted EGR system
- Fuel pump was getting power but dead - replaced it.
- Coil’s good. Cap and rotor look good. Points gapped.
- The L-Jet AFM had been opened and the adjustment wheel inside was so loose that it the flap wasn’t closing fully so the pump was running continuously. I rotated the wheel until there was enough tension to turn off the fuel pump. (I would have normally never touched the AFM!)

Put the engine back in and the car started on the key immediately, ran for 10 seconds and died. I tried again, it started and ran for 5 seconds, then popped loudly back up the intake with enough force to blow the intake boot off the AFM. Since then, it hasn’t started.

Couple notes:
- after the pop, I felt like the intake pipe connector hoses were probably leaking, so I put hose clamps on them. With those clamped down and fresh vac lines everywhere, I’m pretty sure there aren’t any more leaks.
- oil filler breather nipple broke so I’ve taped it off until I can get a new one. But I’m not sure how this affects the vacuum… should it be left open for now?
- I don’t know the fuel pressure but it does have a new pump and lines so I’d be surprised if pressure is the problem.
- tested injector ballasts and got correct ohm readings
- It did start and run on its own spark and fuel, so I assume ECU and injectors are OK.
- the AFM is obviously an issue … probably considerably off. But again, the car did at least start a few times.

So now what?
- I’d like to check/test anything I can before I start buying replacement components.
- Are there baseline settings for idle speed screw, and at least a “best guess” AFM setup?
- Should I just buy another AFM now, knowing this one may never be right again?
- could the intake backfire have damaged something?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[930cabman]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Generally a 25 years nap is not a good thing

[Superhawk996]

So now what?
- I’d like to check/test anything I can before I start buying replacement components.

- could the intake backfire have damaged something?

Yup.

I’ve never owned or messed with 1.8L Ljet. But any of the airflow meters with a swinging door are susceptible to backfire damage. Not unique to 914. 1st generation Miatas had a similar airflow meter that was easily damaged.


There are Lots of guys here that have worked on the AFM. Don’t give up just yet but that is most likely the source of your no-start.

Good man on wanting to do diagnostics before throwing parts at it.

There are basics on the AFM in the Haynes shop manual. Jeff Bowlsby site likely has good info too. Check the tech section
https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[porschetub]

Hi all this is my first post here! I recently picked up a ’75 1.8 that was last registered in 2001! Pretty good barn find, in my opinion. It was up in the high desert of California, so no rust, great mechanicals, all the electrics work. Just flaking paint, decayed interior …and an engine that probably hasn’t run since the Clinton Administration.

The TLDR is the car has started and run for 10 seconds but now won’t start at all.

A quick timeline of what I’ve done/tested:
- Dropped the engine, adjusted valves (encountered something strange that I’ll ask about later)
- Old starter could barely turn the engine over. Replaced it with a hi-torque.
- good compression
- Replaced the old broken bellows thermostat
- New fuel lines, vac lines, spark plugs and wires
- deleted EGR system
- Fuel pump was getting power but dead - replaced it.
- Coil’s good. Cap and rotor look good. Points gapped.
- The L-Jet AFM had been opened and the adjustment wheel inside was so loose that it the flap wasn’t closing fully so the pump was running continuously. I rotated the wheel until there was enough tension to turn off the fuel pump. (I would have normally never touched the AFM!)

Put the engine back in and the car started on the key immediately, ran for 10 seconds and died. I tried again, it started and ran for 5 seconds, then popped loudly back up the intake with enough force to blow the intake boot off the AFM. Since then, it hasn’t started.

Couple notes:
- after the pop, I felt like the intake pipe connector hoses were probably leaking, so I put hose clamps on them. With those clamped down and fresh vac lines everywhere, I’m pretty sure there aren’t any more leaks.
- oil filler breather nipple broke so I’ve taped it off until I can get a new one. But I’m not sure how this affects the vacuum… should it be left open for now?
- I don’t know the fuel pressure but it does have a new pump and lines so I’d be surprised if pressure is the problem.
- tested injector ballasts and got correct ohm readings
- It did start and run on its own spark and fuel, so I assume ECU and injectors are OK.
- the AFM is obviously an issue … probably considerably off. But again, the car did at least start a few times.

So now what?
- I’d like to check/test anything I can before I start buying replacement components.
- Are there baseline settings for idle speed screw, and at least a “best guess” AFM setup?
- Should I just buy another AFM now, knowing this one may never be right again?
- could the intake backfire have damaged something?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

I would get a good used AFM as it is very unlikely that one will ever work properly due to past "tampering " the setup of these very important ,back fires can damage these also but that is the least of your issues .
I have one that is damaged one and the air gate sticks up... no good @ all.
Just make sure you buy a replacement that is the correct type and has history of actually working ,good luck.

[Superhawk996]

I’ll add one more thing (well maybe two or three)

I would figure out what caused the backfire before putting another AFM on it.

Most likely candidates for the backfire are improperly adjusted valves (yeah - you adjusted but didn’t mention the details of what your odd thing was).

The other likely backfire candidate is timing / improper wire routing

Both of those don’t need a running engine for further investigation / confirmation.

The starter issue was most likely due to a very poor or non-existent engine ground between the chassis and the transmission. The lack of a good engine ground will cause you endless grief with the fuel injection.

[spencercanon]

The valve adjustment oddity was that the rocker arms had to be held against the pushrods with quite a bit of force to measure the gap on the valve side. And I had to extend the grub screws almost all the way out. It was almost as if all the pushrods were 3mm too short.

[fiacra]

EDIT: I was writing this while you posted about the valve adjustment so I didn't see it before this was posted. You have to figure that out first. The valves need to be properly adjusted before you move forward.

Yes, the AFM is a POSSIBLE source of the no-start condition. With a backfire the flap can be damaged, but it is possible it is just stuck open. Double check that first if you haven't already. I was also afraid to open my AFM for adjustment, but once I did it I was glad I did. Having said that, I'm not sure that the adjustment you made to your AFM put it back in the right range. I'll give you a link to the most helpful site that I found for AFM adjustment. I'll also give you a link to the L-Jet trouble shooting manual. That is from Jeff Bowlsby's website, which has a whole lot more helpful information on it. It is worth perusing. I'm assuming that when you dropped the engine you checked below the tin for rodent nests. Don't forget rodents can also get into the exhaust system and a plugged exhaust system is a potential cause for your problems. As a matter of course I would also replace the points and condenser. A condenser that has sat for 25 years may be fine, but I'm not sure I would trust it. The L-Jet system is very sensitive to vacuum leaks so if you haven't yet replaced all of the vacuum lines that have been sitting for 25 years you are going to need to do that. A smoke test or a test with compressed air and soapy water can be helpful. Rebuilt and used AFMs are out there. Don't forget these were also used by certain VWs. Try the Samba as I have seen them there. FIC does rebuild these. I'll give you a link to their website.

I have a 1975 1.8 that is fully stock, well maintained, one owner for 44 years with stacks of records. If you run into questions about where lines go, etc., feel free to ask me for pictures of my car.

Good luck! Ask questions, post pictures. In my experience everybody here genuinely wants to help. Some responses may be acerbic, but are not meant to offend or demean.

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zTN_Man12.pdf

https://itinerant-air-cooled.com//viewtopic.php?t=7761

https://fuelinjectioncorp.com/

[Superhawk996]

The valve adjustment oddity was that the rocker arms had to be held against the pushrods with quite a bit of force to measure the gap on the valve side. And I had to extend the grub screws almost all the way out. It was almost as if all the pushrods were 3mm too short.

I’m not sure I fully understand but it sounds like you are doing it wrong or there is something else wrong as you indicate.

That would have negated any attempt for me to start it until I understood what is going on there.

If you have an intake valve mis adjusted too tight and holding a valve partially open you’re going to get backfire into the intake all day long.

That would be job 1 to figure out what’s going on there.

[technicalninja]

I'd fire the critter on B12 carb spray next.
I'd spray it in the vent line just past the AFM.

Give it a 2 second shot and see if it barks...

I can usually control the amount of B12 I'm adding to achieve idle.

I have run a Miata with a viciously poisoned fuel system (un-usable!) up to temperature using this method.
Proved a bunch of shit "good" including the AC which the previous owner left on!

If you can make it run on B12 you've eliminated multiple things.

Also, DONT BE STUPID!!!!!

Anything you're completing a resurrection you should have AMPLE fire suppression available.

Those fiberglass fire blankets for your kitchen are an excellent first choice.

I'll keep a big ass extinguisher in the car for the first few test drives.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) Ninja rule: If you have the fire suppression "ready to go" you will NEVER need it!

[Cairo94507]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) What an excellent first post and introduction to you and your car. It seems like you are miles ahead of the game and will soon have a nicely running 914. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[technicalninja]

The valve adjustment oddity was that the rocker arms had to be held against the pushrods with quite a bit of force to measure the gap on the valve side. And I had to extend the grub screws almost all the way out. It was almost as if all the pushrods were 3mm too short.

I’m not sure I fully understand but it sounds like you are doing it wrong or there is something else wrong as you indicate.

That would have negated any attempt for me to start it until I understood what is going on there.

If you have an intake valve mis adjusted too tight and holding a valve partially open you’re going to get backfire into the intake all day long.

That would be job 1 to figure out what’s going on there.

Yep, Sh is right!

I typed up the last comment a while back, got sidelined by a customer, and just sent it before seeing the VA bullshit!

OMG STOP!!!!!!
Figure that shit out NOW!
My first thought is valve stuck open. This is DEATH!
I'd pop V-Covers and inspect closely!!!!!

[technicalninja]

Valve springs that have sat in a single position for multiple decades should NOT be trusted at all either!!!!!!

Couple of those have been seriously depressed FOREVER...

[930cabman]

What a great forum, 11 posts and the new guy has only been active a couple hours

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I would call that a welcome mat for sure

[VaccaRabite]

So, yeah. Everything Superhawk said - read it 2x.

You did not mention timing. Timing is a prime suspect for backfires. Over advanced can be an issue.

Fueling - I'd guess you are too lean by a good bit. Lean tends to burp through the intake, rich through the exhaust. Given that you moved the AFR to the point that the fuel pump stopped - replace it.

I fully agree that you need to understand what is happening with your valves. I'm guessing they are frozen with age, but I'd redo the valve adjustment. Read the below link. I'd say that threat gets to the point of beating a dead horse, but it is THE thread.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=28758
IMO - this is the definitive way to do valves.

Once valves are re-adjusted...
1) confirm base timeing
2) confirm compression test
3) leakdown test - this will tell you if you have a valve seat failing.

Zach

[spencercanon]

I'm digesting all the excellent advice from all of you. It's much appreciated! With a car like this, obviously somebody parked it and never drove it again for a reason. So there's gonna be that initial issue, and then how ever many issues have developed over the years! The valve adjustment issue really is perplexing: just watched a few videos on the adjustment and there's nothing unusual about the procedure. It's just that the rocker arms on mine are behaving as if they're under their own spring tension. Technicalninja makes a good point and I'm starting to suspect I'll have to drop this engine out again, take the heads off, and start from scratch.

[SirAndy]

"Will it start", "Does it turn over"

I never understood that logic.


Take an engine that has sat for 5/10/15/20/25/+ years and the first thing people do is try to "turn it over".

If there was even a hint of moisture or corrosion in that engine (likely) you just ruined all the bearings and possibly scratched the rings, pistons and cylinders.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[spencercanon]

SirAndy's post is rhetorical I guess. But the first thing I did was to take the engine out, oil the cylinders, and then turn the engine carefully by hand.

[spencercanon]

I dropped the engine back out and pulled the intake tubes. engine is completely flooded with fuel. must be an injector stuck open.

[technicalninja]

SirAndy's post is rhetorical I guess. But the first thing I did was to take the engine out, oil the cylinders, and then turn the engine carefully by hand.

Good, he's starting a resurrection properly!
And...
He's perfectly fine with ripping the puppy apart. Most folks go to great lengths to NOT remove the engine.
He starts with it...
KICK ASS!

Now, because of "newness" of the breed he didn't take it down far enough.
@Superhawk996 has a bunch of pictures of what you CAN find under the tin.
It's impressive enough to make "check under tin" a MUST do on something that has been sitting awhile.

We (the forum) really ought to have an "engine out" maintenance schedule/list
There are many things I'd suggest/do automatically.
The hard plastic fuel lines in the tunnel should get changed to SS lines. (Tangerine racing).
Do a "valve job" on the heads. Replace springs if old.
Do the shim kit on the rocker arms.
Both crankshaft seals. Check/set endplay on crankshaft.
Inspect the crap out of the OP control valves. (see Tangerine Racing for solutions).
Clean the oil cooler and replace seals.
You're running a 75 1.8L (exactly like me!) Your fan does NOT have TDC marks!!!!!!
Degree fan for TDC and TDC 180 out.
I found a 2.0l fan that had the normal TDC mark and added the second mark.
This makes leak down tests a BUNCH easier to do!
Flexible sewing tape measure is the easiest way to mark fan. Just go 1/2 way round.
Tangerine racing (I'm sounding like a commercial for TR!) has a KILLER firewall spherical shift rob bearing. It's easier to install with engine out.

That's just a start. I'd bet I've missed a bunch of other stuff.

I dropped the engine back out and pulled the intake tubes. engine is completely flooded with fuel. must be an injector stuck open.

And he's QUICK to rip it back down!
Love the enthusiasm!

I'll bet you've already figured out how much EASIER the 914 is to work on over the Europa I see in your garage. That looks like a NICE one!

Injectors are another thing that sitting forever screws up. Pull that stuff off of the engine, hook it back up to the car and just pressurize it.
I'd bet money at least one of those injectors will be streaming.

Nother thing to look at is the condition inside the tank.
We currently can buy new tanks for less than $300 so don't bust your ass to clean a nasty one!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[Jack Standz]

Hey, good luck with the fix.

Yeah, the valves are probably sticking part way open (or someone put hydraulic lifters in it and they aren't pumping up yet? Unlikely, but possible. ). Springs are pretty inexpensive compared to other parts. Would look into putting new ones in it. Some of those springs have been fully compressed for a long time and probably aren't giving proper pressure.

But first, think about putting a bore scope down it and see what you find. Would do this before removing the heads unless you find some other reasom to do so.

Here's one:

https://www.amazon.com/Inspection-Waterproo...C196&sr=8-7

There are cheaper ones that just plug into a phone, but you decide if you want to risk damaging your phone by using and maybe dropping it or damaging it. We find all kinds of uses for a flexible endoscope/borescope.