suby hotrod motors, Probably cost equal to a really good porsche 6 Options

[charliew]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1699103

These motors are probably 15-20k once they reach the track. Just a offhand guess. As my son has spent 13k on a street motor with no tranny mods. Just motor, ported heads, bigger cams, 100mm bore, open source tuning with datalogging and utec piggyback, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, bigger oil pump, front mount ic, 8qt oil pan, true cold air intake and a 30r rotated turbo at 26 psi. Conservative tune about 425awhp. Also no water or alcohol injection yet.

[charliew]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

[SnailPerformance]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[charliew]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas

Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.

[DBCooper]

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas

Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.

Charlie, let's get back on track here. First thing, Travis at Snailperformance (Snailperformance) is a Subaru tuner (he's 'treefrogaz' on the NASIOC forums), so I think he's qualified to speak. No one's suggesting that anyone weld up their wastegate, the only point of mentioning that was that it's possible to do big horsepower very cheaply. If only temporarily. But for well-built motors here's a dyno graph that Travis did for a 30r turbo engine done right, seemingly similar to your son's but a lot less expensive: HERE.. That's 365whp, which is coming up onto 500bhp, and I think that qualifies as a "hot rod" motor. And more, even that 313awd horsepower you linked in your last post is over 400bhp, with relatively low-cost upgrades.

But let's get back to the original subject. Your initial post was to the effect that hot rod Subaru engines cost as much as comparable Porsche engines, giving me the hunch that you're going to be surprised to find out what those Porsches cost. But to answer the question we need to get the costs to compare. Would an aircooled 300bhp Porsche motor be considered a "hot rod"? For anything less than a late 3.6 I think so, but we really need to know how much say 300, 400 and 600bhp aircooled Porsche engines would cost, maybe 3.0, 3.2, and 3.6's, complete with flywheel, clutch, induction and exhaust. Costs for both low mileage used and for new. Can anyone help out here?

And to clarify, where did you get that $15-20K price for the 600bhp Cosworth/Subaru motor you linked in your first post?