Could a 914 Redux come about? ...& do you like it?, ...now that VW owns controlling interest in Porsche? Options

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Motor Trend on-line had an article in Sept. 2008 about a possible return of the 914, which I came across last year ......

Now that the dust has apparently settled from the VW vs. Porsche corporate control battle, with VW in control - one must wonder if this design study will now come to market?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

OKAY - UPDATE - And to be clear - I'm also asking which styling concept you like, both or neither - as well as if you'd possibly buy one if it came about?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

But you gotta love Sir Andy's brevity as you read on this thread: "No" (to the will they question only).

If you look at the blue version - it clearly has the VW roundel on the front.
However, the gold & more 914-like concept sketch has what appears to be or could be the shield shaped Porsche Crest on the front deck!

Full article at:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_ve..._914/index.html

Concept Sketches at: - these are also linked at the full article above

GOLD 914 Targa Roadster - http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_ve...4/photo_01.html

BLUE VW Targa Coupe - http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_ve...4/photo_02.html


~ Personally, I prefer this styling concept myself! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)



A guy named Hans L. on here who is involved with the 914-6 resto shop up in Camarillo, also works/worked his "regular day job" at the VW-Audi Design Center in Santa Monica CA, doing such design concepts for them.

Maybe he can enlighten us all????
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Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[jcambo7]

I like the yellow concept. Just a thought though. Does anyone think that a new era 914 would make the old 914 value go up or down?

[Tom_T]

I like the yellow concept. Just a thought though. Does anyone think that a new era 914 would make the old 914 value go up or down?

Hard to say, since other collectibility & economy issues come into play.

If the 911/912 series has anything to reflect on what might happen though, the older 60's & 2nd gen 70's 911's have held up well with the later series of 911-ish models coming out every so often since the 80's to present. If that's any indicator, then the original 914s should hold up pretty well.

Plus all those years of denigrating the 914 as "not a real Porsche" tended to have more seen as disposable, so their numbers have diminished perhaps faster that the comparable 911/912 series (relative to total production for each).

It looks like everybody so far shares my taste with the gold/yellow version which is closer to a 914's styling.

If VW is smart, they'll do the blue one as a vW "new Sirocco" or something under their badge, with the gold/yellow one as purely a Porsche badged vehicle.

With the Boxters climbing so high in price now, they probably need a more basic entry level Porsche for the new entrants, as well as for us old school simple sports cars lovers!

I could see this with a flat H-4 & H-6, but would really like to see them shed the weight of water-cooled - & get back to basics with an air/oil-cooled motor line-up again! Also with a true clutched 5 or 6/7 speed stick & no other "helper tech" on them.

Geez - has everybody in the new cars today forgotten how to drive now!!?? I mean most new cars from mid-range up & the silly-utes do everything but wipe your @$$ for you! ...stability control, i-drive ~ no ~ it-drive, PDK (push de Klutch) auto-matic double-clutch for you, drive-by-wire (oh there's a good one - source it from Toyota - NOT), need I drone on!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I wish Hans Lupine would weigh in here & tell us if this might be in the line-up soon!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[jonferns]

If VW is smart, they'll do the blue one as a vW "new Sirocco" or something under their badge, with the gold/yellow one as purely a Porsche badged vehicle.

They already have a new Scirroco out, at least they were selling them in Portugal last summer when I was there, took some pics at a VW dealer. I'll look for em.

[Tom_T]

If VW is smart, they'll do the blue one as a vW "new Sirocco" or something under their badge, with the gold/yellow one as purely a Porsche badged vehicle.

They already have a new Scirroco out, at least they were selling them in Portugal last summer when I was there, took some pics at a VW dealer. I'll look for em.

Well then, maybe Gen.2 New Scirocco or something else, since the Blue one definitely does NOT have the styling ques to be the "New Ghia"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[MDG]

Well then, maybe Gen.2 New Scirocco or something else, since the Blue one definitely does NOT have the styling ques to be the "New Ghia"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you look at pictures of the Scirocco, you'll see where the person that did this concept took their cues from. And the new Scirocco has been out there for awhile - just not in North America. I think for VW, this is their new 914/Ghia



As for Porsche, look at the price point of a 914-6 and a 911 when they were new. As the costs increased over the decades the 914, keeping pace with the 911, would be priced right where the Boxster/Cayman is now.
As I said the last time these two drawings came up, Porsche is making the 'new' 914 and has been for some time.

It's just not the one that a lot of 'original' 914 owners were hoping for. There is no chance Porsche is ever going to completely re-invent themselves and start building a no frills Miata type car. They never have - they aren't going to start.

[Tom_T]

Well then, maybe Gen.2 New Scirocco or something else, since the Blue one definitely does NOT have the styling ques to be the "New Ghia"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you look at pictures of the Scirocco, you'll see where the person that did this concept took their cues from. And the new Scirocco has been out there for awhile - just not in North America. I think for VW, this is their new 914/Ghia



As for Porsche, look at the price point of a 914-6 and a 911 when they were new. As the costs increased over the decades the 914, keeping pace with the 911, would be priced right where the Boxster/Cayman is now.
As I said the last time these two drawings came up, Porsche is making the 'new' 914 and has been for some time.

It's just not the one that a lot of 'original' 914 owners were hoping for. There is no chance Porsche is ever going to completely re-invent themselves and start building a no frills Miata type car. They never have - they aren't going to start.

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars. Today you HAVE to have AC, 30 disc CDs with 18 speakers-tweeters-woofers-boomers, seat fanny-warmers, defrost everything (even in SoCal), double-clutch help, stabilization control & bad driver assistance, etc. in Porsches & other upper price point cars.

Most of these add-ons are there to justify ever escalating prices - as happened in the housing market over the 2000's with the McMansions (maybe more prevalent here in SoCal). Even the homebuilders have gotten smart & are now building & selling more plain vanilla homes at a lower price point in this "new economy"! Expect the same in autos & everything for awhile!

Thanx for the Pic! These 2 studies were done by VW's design group, & IIRC that guy I mentioned on here - Hans Lupine had a hand in this Sirocco design, as well as another concept which VW showed at the 09 NY or similar Auto Show.

Great debate & discussion though everyone! I'm enjoying hearing all the opinions!
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[MDG]

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars.

Right. But that's not my point. The cars you mentioned may be 'no frills' by todays standard. Not so much when they were new.

But my point has nothing to do with that; it's COST I'm talking about. A new 914-6 was priced uncomfortably close to a 911. It was never (1970's pricing) a $2500.00 car. In fact, all the other models you mentioned were also pricey in their day.

What I am saying is Porsche is not about to change their tune and make a $30k car, or going back to 1970, a $1,850.00 914-6.

They are making it now. It's called a Cayman. If that thing had come with a targa top, and the Boxster hadn't come at all, every auto journalist in the world would have gone, 'Huh, Porsche made a new 914-6.'

[Tom_T]

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars.

Right. But that's not my point. The cars you mentioned may be 'no frills' by todays standard. Not so much when they were new.

But my point has nothing to do with that; it's COST I'm talking about. A new 914-6 was priced uncomfortably close to a 911. It was never (1970's pricing) a $2500.00 car. In fact, all the other models you mentioned were also pricey in their day.

What I am saying is Porsche is not about to change their tune and make a $30k car, or going back to 1970, a $1,850.00 914-6.

They are making it now. It's called a Cayman. If that thing had come with a targa top, and the Boxster hadn't come at all, every auto journalist in the world would have gone, 'Huh, Porsche made a new 914-6.'

Mike - Cayman is waaaay too expensive for the market segment which Porsche needs to captue early & young. How many 20-somethings & early 30's buyers do you know who can pop for a $60-80k +/- Cayman/Boxster today!!?? I'd venture to say not many, but easily a heck of a lot for $30-60k +/- IMHO.

And I'm not speaking relative "frills vs. no frills" then & today, as relativism doesn't always work as a justification in product design - even though the marketing gurus will try to "sell" folks that way! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm saying to go back to a more basic fun sports car as an option in the PAG line-up. Porsche has done that with almost every generation: 356 Speedster, 912/912E & the 914, 928/944/968, Boxster & now Boxster Speedster, & who knows what next!!??

Moreover, the 356 & 911/912/930 series of that 60's-80's era were hand built sports cars, whereas all Porsches are ALL assembly line built today - as the 914/4 & 928/944/968 were in their day.

Even the first base Boxster started initially in the price-point range we're talking about here for a 6 at $40-50k+/- ~ but as with the 911/912 & 924/944/968 series ~ price creep comes in & now you have $61k for the "new stripped down 2800 lb. Speedster" - up to almost $100k for the loaded BoxsterS/CaymanS ~ just where the 911 series was just a few years ago! Top half of 5-figures is a non-starter for most young professionals etc. wanting to enter the market with a Porsche as their "first dream car."

So Porsche has again "lost" that crucial initial entry Porsche buyer $30-$60k window, and salaries are frozen or dropping in this economy - NOT ever rising. Every maker needs to keep those new buyers coming in the door, in order to build brand loyalty early on, and used Porsches just won't cut it in that market segment for most of the masses.

Let's face it - we're ALL borderline insane on 914world with our inane 914 Luv! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .... but most everyday buyers aren't like us, & they want a DD Porsche that they can afford & depend upon running without much fussing, and the younger & more frugal ones want it in the mid-5-figure price range!

I do understand where you're coming from on the cost premise, but have a different take on it. First - you're comparing 914-6 with a Retro-914-4 price range of $30-40k, whereas more likely the hot 4-turbo &/or 6 would be in the next bracket(s) of $40-50k & $50-60k respectively.

The problem was that Porsche tried to semi-hand build the 914-6 like the 911's of the day, when they really needed a mass production price to keep the price under the hand built 911T especially, as well as for more differentiation of what you get for the money of 914-6 vs. 911T. Clearly less than 10% didn't give an appropriate spread, & that was wiped out after you added some options to the 914-6 price.

And on that topic, marketing-wise they "screwed the pooch" by marketing it as some blend of VW-Porsche, rather than as they did here in the USA as just a Porsche! I'd venture to say that - had Porsche sent 6 drive-trains to Karmann for assembly line builds of both 4s & 6s at a cost savings - but marketed it as a "pure Porsche" (albeit with VW components & assembly assistance) - that it MAY NOT have had the identity crisis in the market, & would definitely had a better price difference between the 911s. Of course without Mr. Peabody's time machine, we'll never know for sure! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Also, from an econometric analysis perspective - you have to take out of your comparison above - the Dollar vs. Mark exchange rate gyrations of the 1970's - resulting from before they took the currencies off the gold standard & the wild fluctuations afterward while the currency markets settled; as well as the 70's 1st & 2nd Oil Crisis induced inflation (just as the recent one in `08 jacked up all prices - not just fuel costs).

Additionally, new materials & production methods today mitigate some of the manufacturing costs of cars today - so it's not a straight line doubling of costs per decade sort of regression calculation. It would be a better analysis to look at the new Boxster Speedster at $61k ~ & analyze where costs would be saved by further cuts, a smaller & lighter platform (body & chassis), & a smaller displacement high-output motor(s).

The question is really whether Porsche could build a 2/3's scale Boxster - as in the sketch for $30-40k in a basic sporty 4 banger, & $40-60K for increased output power plants, hybrids, EVs, etc., & still attract enough buyers in that price-point range worldwide (40-60% in the US), to make back their investment & a respectable profit margin - but NOT a high end Porsche profit margin.

BMW, Jag, etc. have all got lower margin cars to capture these buyers early - not just to make huge profits now - but also to build a pipeline of future move-up buyers who will pop for the $100+k & ever growing Boxster/Cayman bill, & then will pay more for 911 series cars over the years - IF they keep them satisfied as customers. The name of that game is brand loyalty, as Toyota is struggling with now. BTW - it took Audi a decade to recover from their similar mishandling of their version of the runaway acceleration problem in the 70's-80's.

VW sees that entry buyer capture problem, and the product differentiation between a VW sports sedan, an Audi TT/etc., & a range of Porsche products - vs. their top-top end Bentley & Bugatti top of the pyramid niche products which have absolutely no entry strategy for their exclusive limited production products. So you're absolutely right on them not doing a VW nor an Audi 914-Redux, but I think (& hope) that the jury is still out for one in the offing from Porsche.

And please do keep in mind that we're just having a discussion here, and I'm not trying to disparage you nor anyone else in any way for differing opinions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)