Gauging interest for PnP Megasquirt solution, MS anyone? Options

[JamesM]

For my most recent Megasquirt install i went a different route and had some mini-MS boards produced. It did not make a lot of sense to just have one PCB printed so needless to say i have more then a few empty boards laying around. Now i am trying to decide if it is worth my time and money to build these boards out and sell them as a plug n play solution for d-jet cars.

For those who don't know, mini-ms is electronically compatible with megasquirt 2.2 however the components are arranged tighter on the board and it integrates the relay board all on a form factor smaller then the original MS. My first couple of installs i used a standard megasquirt 2.2 with relay board and DB-37 cable but the mini-ms seemed like the better way to go so that is what i am playing with now.

The setup i a running right now looks almost stock, the mini-ms is enclosed completely in a gutted d-jet brain and plugs directly into the d-jet harness. the only difference from stock is a MAP line running to the brain and the 2 injector ground wires being run back as well. You have to look close to tell its not stock, however i have a feeling i could make it even more stealth by hiding the MAP sensor in an old MPS in order to get rid of the vac line to the ECU. I just have not cared enough to cut up an MPS yet.

The great part about this system is it makes troubleshooting way easier and eliminates the need for stock trigger points, MPS. ECU, decell valve, and cold start injector, though they can all be left in place if desired in order to appear stock. It also allows for cool things if you desire like closed loop operation with a wideband O2 sensor, spark control, rev limiters, traction control, and a bunch of other stuff depending on how far you want to take it. It can be tuned around just about anything, so its great if you want to change cams or go bigger on your motor and still look stock.

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

[JeffBowlsby]

One of your big hurdles will be the harness as with all PEFI. The notion of reusing the original D-Jet FI harnesses is not possible or realistic, they are not wired the same as you would need for the MS or any PEFI and there is the very real issue of EMI shielding that the original harnesses do not have. In addition to being old and frail and brittle and corroded and broken and...

Another fundamental concern about MS is that it is experimental. Its ok for those that like to tinker and control their own destiny, but not a good commodity solution for the masses.

[JamesM]

One of your big hurdles will be the harness as with all PEFI. The notion of reusing the original D-Jet FI harnesses is not possible or realistic, they are not wired the same as you would need for the MS or any PEFI and there is the very real issue of EMI shielding that the original harnesses do not have. In addition to being old and frail and brittle and corroded and broken and...

Another fundamental concern about MS is that it is experimental. Its ok for those that like to tinker and control their own destiny, but not a good commodity solution for the masses.

I would assume the same thing however i have already done this on multiple cars with no permanent modification to the wiring harnesses. One of my requirements when I built my original system was to not modify in any way the stock wiring harness as I had a really nice R.E.S. wiring harness that I paid to much money for many years ago.

d-jet triggers the injectors on the hot side with a fixed ground, megasquirt is the opposite and uses fixed power while switching the ground. The only problem is that the d-jet injector grounds terminate at the engine case and not at the ECU. The solution I came up with was to just run the ground wires from the 2 injector banks back to the ECU. This is probably the most non-stock aspect of the system but still really simple and does not modify the stock harness. My return wires are hidden under my harness but for someone really worried about a stealth install these could be run in the harness as well. EMI shielding may be an issue in some cars but it is not one I have came across yet and I have not seen any megasquirt installs that address this. I do shield the wire that gets the tach signal from the coil however I have not noticed a difference with or without the shielding on my installs.

I have seen your work though and believe your electrical engineering experience most likely goes WAY beyond mine, so I would appreciate any input on the mater.


As far as MS being experimental, I consider it experimental only due to the fact that you can experiment with it as it is an open project. In many ways I see this as a good thing as it allows for wider development and problem identification. The 2.2 boards have been “experimental” for almost 10 years now, and despite the fact that it was intended to be a DIY system, it was still designed by professionals. Is any other PEFI system on a 914 less experimental?

Even with all the real world megasquirt installs that have been done, as this board is a variation of a 2.2 board it will receive a LOT of testing before I would be comfortable releasing it to anyone.

[JeffBowlsby]

As far as MS being experimental, I consider it experimental only due to the fact that you can experiment with it

Let me get this straight. I know you have the most noble intentions and I respect you for that. So on the original 35+ year old harness you plan to zip tie a couple extra wires - outside of the protective casing - here and there to provided extra needed circuitry? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

You are genuinely proposing to build and take to market and expect people to pay good money for a standardized PnP FI system (that is supposed to last for how long?), based on an experimental ECU with no warranty, that is not suitable for an engine bay open to the weather, mounting it in the open engine bay (in a gutted D-Jet case) using a kluged-up original harness with brittle wires, broken casing and corroded connections, and it is supposed to work on multiple variants of used engines with 0-1,000,000 miles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

SDS is not experimental and even it has its issues.

You should also look for posts by Jeff Keyzer/McMark on their MS project, Dave up in Oregon on why he had to rebuild his Jake motor a couple times at huge expense and inconenience to not only himself but aslo to Jake and Len, all ultimately attributed to MS issues, and know that Jake does not allow MS on his engines to get a better feel for the cautions of MS.

With all due respect, all I can say is to be sure you transfer all your assets to into your wifes name and may god have mercy on your soul before you jump into this.

[JamesM]

As far as MS being experimental, I consider it experimental only due to the fact that you can experiment with it

Let me get this straight. I know you have the most noble intentions and I respect you for that. So on the original 35+ year old harness you plan to zip tie a couple extra wires - outside of the protective casing - here and there to provided extra needed circuitry? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

You are genuinely proposing to build and take to market and expect people to pay good money for a standardized PnP FI system (that is supposed to last for how long?), based on an experimental ECU with no warranty, that is not suitable for an engine bay open to the weather, mounting it in the open engine bay (in a gutted D-Jet case) using a kluged-up original harness with brittle wires, broken casing and corroded connections, and it is supposed to work on multiple variants of used engines with 0-1,000,000 miles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

SDS is not experimental and even it has its issues.

You should also look for posts by Jeff Keyzer/McMark on their MS project, Dave up in Oregon on why he had to rebuild his Jake motor a couple times at huge expense and inconenience to not only himself but aslo to Jake and Len, all ultimately attributed to MS issues, and know that Jake does not allow MS on his engines to get a better feel for the cautions of MS.

With all due respect, all I can say is to be sure you transfer all your assets to into your wifes name and may god have mercy on your soul before you jump into this.

Not plan to, I have already done it. All i can really say to that is I have been running mine for over 3 years, winning my autox class with it despite not being that great a driver, and have yet to replace my engine despite my best efforts to destroy it. Maybe i am just lucky?
I understand that some people have attempted to use megasquirt and failed, sometimes horribly, but then there are hundreds and hundreds of people that it worked just fine for. My goal is to simplify the process. whether i do that by pre building kits for people, or by just documenting step by step EXACTLY what they need to do to get it to work right is still up in the air. The fact of the matter is these cars are getting old, new parts are NLA and i dont think there is a single one of us that wants to give up driving them. As far as i am concerned carbs were never an option for me, a 4K aftermarket system that still comes with its own issues will most likely never be an option for me as well. MS was affordable, it retained a stock appearance for me, and it has already lasted through three autox seasons as well. Even if it died on me tomorrow for what it cost, i would say i have already got my moneys worth out of it...but its still running. The most likely failure i foresee is a burned out injector driver, and even that is a $5-$10 fix. I could replace my entire system if I had to 10X over and still be coming out ahead cost wise.

Yes, 30 year old harnesses could be an issue, but no more of an issue then they would be on a d-jet car. That is one of the reasons i stopped running a 30 year old harness even when I was running d-jet, and i am assuming the reason you build new harnesses. Lets look at what the MS is doing with the harness vs the d-jet setup. MS uses 2 temp sensors, in my setup these are the stock d-jet IAT and CHT sensors, these are just resistance measurements over a single line, same as d-jet, though MS in my experience is a lot less tempermental with these sensors. The other thing MS does is pass current to control the injectors, same as d-jet, i am even using the existing resistors in the d-jet ecu, the only difference is the ground wires are brought back to the ecu rather then the engine case. 2 sensors, 2 injectors banks, 3 more wires if you want to use a TPS and thats it. I am not seeing where there is an increased potential for problems over d-jet on the same harness. If anything i would say MS is a simpler system with less potential for problems over the same harness, d-jet has a lot more going on that depends on a good harness.

Your concern is duly noted though, and i would rather not get into a liability situation. However i would like to give people an option to keep their cars fuel injected for less then a 4k solution. Suppose i should look into a legal waiver of some sort if i decide to go through with this.