Ebay Phoenix Red 914 Questions Options

[TKO]

Can anyone share with me their thoughts on this 914? Seller says '73 2.0. The car has all black bumpers, no fog lights, etc. Is it possible it was original like this?

Many thanks!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewIt...RK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

[Tom_T]

TKO -

In short - now that the seller has pix of the VIN, the best way for you to confirm this as a 73 914-2.0, would be to call Porsche's PCNA USA headquarters (800# online at the Porsche website), select Customer Care & the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) options, then tell them you are considering buying this 914, give them the VIN 4732907446, & ask them if their records show it as a 1.7 or 2.0 model.

When I looked at this evil-bay ad again early this morning, the seller had responded to the MY question as mis-typing a 2 instead of 3 .... NOT!

He entered the VIN on the owners warranty info of 4722919815, which coincides with all of those docs being for the 1972 MY.

The VIN on the car at all 4 places is 4732907446 - a completely different series of digits.

Something is amiss with the mismatched documentation & body VINs.

The Chassis number on the Karmann plate (top box) can't be confirmed with one in the rear of the trunk floor, since their is no pic of it, but the most that would show is a rear clip was replaced from damage if it didn't match (not a big deal in more rainy & rusty states on a 40 year old pre-rust-treated body cars - even if from SoCal).

The VIN sticker shows an 11/72 build month & the Chassis No. translates to 11/7/72.
FYI: 4629571 = 46th week, 2nd work day/Tues., 95 = Karmann Plant, 71st car built that day

Whereas, the warranty book shows a car sold 2 months earlier than this one was built - a 72 model sold in Sept. 72, so this clearly has the wrong documentation with it.

Could the seller figure out 72 documents vs. 73 VIN & model?
I think any reasonably intelligent person can tell there is something off, so why the seller cannot is beyond me!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

As I & others above have stated, it has a few things off for a first half 73 MY model 2.0, as well as for it being a 65k mile 914.

Later claimed extremely low mileage first:

The wear on the drivers door top bolster, window crank handle replaced with a late 80's VW/924 version (I didn't need to replace mine on my 8/72 build 2.0 until 130k+), map box/armrest, headlight & emergency flasher switches, gas & brake pedals/pad, shifter knob, horn butterfly & emergency brake, seat adjuster loops' wear & paint chipping, etc. - all speak to me of a 165k mi. or more 914.

Compare this to the <61k mi `71 914/4 (red) & 25k+/- mi later `73 914-2.0 (sahara beige) in the Originality & History Forum's nailed thread "The few, the rare..." for what truly low mileage looks like on wear items.
(See Pat, even the non-purely "from the factory original" 914s do come in handy for members! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

.

As for the former "off" items for a 73 MY 914-2.0 model:

> Several of us have said that 73 MY 914s only had the tits (bumper guards) at the front, and 74s had them at both ends, as this one has - so the bumpers have been changed at some point.

> Most - if not all - 914-2.0's sold in the USA were marketed as the "914S" by Porsche+Audi here, with the full Appearance & Performance Groups of options (AG & PG), which continued up through Jan., Feb. or March of 1973 - & certainly within the Nov. 72 production of this 914.

The PG included: (anti-) sway bars front & rear (I don't see ANY drop links for sway bars either front or rear on the underside pix - so no sway bars), and Fuchs 2 Liter wheels (the ones shown could be either repros which were usually painted black backgrounds, & the "real" ones have a satin finish/almost whitish, but the only way to tell for sure is to see pix of the stampings on the backside of the wheels). Note that all of these items &/or groups were available individually or as groups on either a 1.7 or 2.0 model, but the "914S" in the USA up to early 1973 were most/all AG+PG equipped, as shown in the Dec. 72 advert pic at the bottom of this tirade.

The AG included: the center console with 3 gauges & the wider red banded oil temp. gauge used only in 73 MY (check), center storage box with hinged padded top center cushion (I don't think so cuz the hinged cushion is more of a straight front to mate to the center console rear, & this car has a sloped front cushion, but a pic inside will tell for sure to see the hinge & a different black vinyl covered compartment vs. a plastic compartment & lift off cushion in non-AG 914s), leather shifter boot (check), leather wrapped steering wheel (nope), loop pile carpet (check), front fog lights & dash switch (nope & nope, & not even the hole in the dash facing where the switch was if removed, as mine was by the DAPO), dual tone horns (2 horns L&R - I can't see well enough behind the front bumper grills to tell), chrome F&R bumpers & fog light/horn grills & rear tow hook hole plug (nope on all counts, but they could've been replaced or painted & the rear is definitely a 74 MY replacement with rear tits, & the grills are the non-fog light type - the dealer or DAPO had removed my foglights/grills/switch before I bought my 73 2L in Dec. 75, so stuff happens), vinyl on the sails & roll bar with "chrome" trim (check).

Ergo, unless PCNA tells you it was a 2.0, or this guy can produce a window sticker &/or original dealer sales invoice for this `73 914 (not a 72) showing it was one of the model numbers for a 2.0 as shown in the list at the link below, then it's probably NOT a real 2.0 - but rather an engine swap into a 1.7.
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/ModelNumbers.htm

While we cannot say for sure that there were zero "de-contented" 914-2.0s produced in 1972, for the most part it appears that the US marketing arm only wanted to sell "fully loaded" "914s" models to justify the cost equal to the last 914-6's, and only changed their posture sometime around Spring 73 when the DM had escalated so much against the dollar, that the fully loaded 914-2.0s were passing $6000 & went to $7000 by the end of the 73 MY. A guy on here - dlkawashima up in San Jose? - has a documented but much later "914 Sport" de-contented 914-2.0 without the Appearance Group options, if you want to see it in that O&H the few, the rare topic.

Additional "off" clues for a "real" 73 2L are:
> the tire sticker on the gas tank is for a 155SR15 tire which was standard on 72-75 1.7 & 1.8 914s, whereas the 73-76 914-2.0s spec'd 165HR15 tires due to their higher speed capability requiring an HR tire (conclusive that this was a 1.7 originally, unless the fuel &/or expansion tank was changed for a used 1.7 one),

> a banded airbox top not used until later in 73 (+/- Mar.~June 73 builds, see sahara beige 73 2L) rather than the diamond grid stamped top (not conclusive),

> plastic 2.0 badge rather than metal (not conclusive if replaced in a repaint/body work or for better looks when old one faded),

> silver VIN sticker - not black (could be replacement at repaint),

> rear bumper/tits as noted,

> the spare is a 70-72 MY type rather than the 73-76 "star" or "Mag look" spare (dealers often "stole" the 5th alloy spares to sell to others as a set from 4 914s & replaced with a steel spare they had around, so not conclusive), etc.

The seller in his long "history" (his-story) he demonstrates an above average knowledge of 914s, so the "off" issues should be clearer to him than claimed, one would think! Where there's smoke - there's usually fire! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Since the purported owner docs are 72 MY, this could also be a "VIN transplant" as well as an engine transplant - if those truly are the correct warranty, emissions & owner manuals for this 914 (it's not unheard of for people to purport this fraud for more sales value, but more often seen with purported 914-6's due to their much higher values).

IMHO this particular 914 shows more signs of a 73 914-1.7 conversion to a 2.0, than being "born" that way, in addition to having more than 65k miles on it. "A preponderance of the evidence" comes to mind in my conclusion, but a call to PCNA's COA dept. could solve it for sure.

All that said - it may be a very nice 40 year old 914-1.7 converted to 2.0 - but not worth a real 914-2.0 with 65k mi price, but more along the lines of a mid to high value 73 914-1.7 at the NADA & Excellence price guides below, which tops out at only $12,450 - $12,800 vs. $14,350 current bid (& IMHO the wear items noted above make this 914-X.X worth less than top cond. cars).
http://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/bu...guide/856880138

http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/197...arga-1-8/Values
(I just noticed that NADA has their model/engine options FUBAR with 1.8 in 73 MY ~ 1.8 was 74-75 only, & 1.7 & 2.0 in 72 MY when the 2.0 was NEVER available on a 73 VINed 914 - so their inaccuracies help feed confusion in the marketplace!)

If you decide to proceed with this car to bid - ask for a pic of the GA number on the top of the engine case behind the fan shroud next to the oil filler housing, then call PCNA to confirm if it's really an original 2.0 or 1.7 & a matching engine number (as I said at the top, but the engine case no. will also let them tell you if it is truly the original engine # as the seller claims). If it checks out with PCNA as a real 2.0, then get someone familiar with 914s in GA to inspect the car for any rust or other issues, or make an inspection by George Hussey at AutoAtlanta or another well reputed shop close to the seller (but NOT "his" regular shop) a requirement for the purchase to close with full payment.

Cracker - it's not that we're trying to be "originality gods," but rather trying to help a fellow member who asked for help & opinions, to not get duped by a seller & 914 which is highly probably NOT what is claimed for a wide variety of reasons. I mainly wanted to counter the claims that we don't know what to look for, and that this seller has plenty of "off" issues here to be of concern to a buyer. Pat, Paul & most of the others commenting above have been around 914s for a long, long time - some since the early 1970s when they were purchased new (Pat & Paul) or shortly afterwards as used cars (me in 75) - so we know first hand what to look for in many cases. After all, we're here to help each other out & avoid expensive mistakes - not to impress the rest with our knowledge! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

TKO & anyone else looking at this claimed original 73 2.0 with only 65k miles should be duly concerned. Yes he's only a seller & not taking a test, but he knows a lot more about 914s than a simple VIN typing error allows. There is more amiss here, and only checking with PCNA & original sales docs. will clear it up for sure.

FYI - here's the Dec. 72 "914 S" ad & 2 dealer brochures' eqpt. list - which would've been out about the time this 914 was sold in the USA:




More info on the "914 S" topic here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=107851&st=

O&H "The few, the rare...." nailed topic here:
914world O&H - The Few, The Rare....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

TKO - You're in Coto & I'm in Orange, & I'll be around this weekend - if this long winded explanation wasn't enough for you - if you want to call me send me a PM with your number & I'll PM back with mine.

Hope this helps!?

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom T
Orange, CA
73 914-2.0 since Dec 75
///////

[Cracker]

Cracker - it's not that we're trying to be "originality gods," but rather trying to help a fellow member who asked for help & opinions, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Tom - very impressive write up and I enjoyed reading it too.

Have a great Memorial day weekend! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)