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> 0-60 for a 914/6 with 3.2?
Tdskip
post Dec 22 2019, 01:45 PM
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The numbers are secondary to the driving experience of course, but just curious if anyone’s ever benchmark to their conversion against a stopwatch?
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Superhawk996
post Jan 1 2020, 02:21 PM
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This thread really got me thinking about what the lower bound might be for a 914 1/4 mile time.

If anyone is interested I found a decent on-line 1/4 mile simulation tool that accounts for key variables like tire mu, engine inertia, wheel inertia, aero effects, rolling resistance, etc.

Most models I could find were overly simplistic just based on weight vs. HP which is not a resonable modeling simplification. I also tried to find more elaborate Vehicle Dynamics Matlab or Simulink models but came up empty handed and I didn't want to have to create my own from scratch - far too time consuming. The only one I could find didn't work with my older copy of Matlab.

This model also has a traction control assumed in it that assumes torque will be limited to only what the tire mu can support. It also has a clutch slip factor that you can play with.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/accel_sim.htm

This on-line tool appears to be built off a standard "bicycle model" which is commonly used in automotive for modeling of things like longitudinal accelerations related to brake controls. Ufortunately I can't see the source code but the input variables are correct for a simplied bicycle model and include the important Cd and rolling resistance terms. Aero drag and rolling resistnace become very important at 60 mph+ speeds. They key points to use the model is that you will have to double the wheel inertia and that the engine inertia is "lumped" so ideally you would need the inertia of the engine and the transmission. These can be estimated based on other academic work found here.

http://transportproblems.polsl.pl/pl/archi...2010t5z1_04.pdf

Key inputs from Peter Russek 914/4 guide
914 Wheelbase = 96.5 inches
1st gear = 3.09
2nd = 1.89
3rd = 1.26
4th = .93
5th = .71
6th ==NA for 914 but you can use .71 again
Final Driver (Rear axle ratio) = 4.429:1

Cross sectional Area - I assumed 20 square feet
914 width = 65 inches
914 height = apporox 43 inches
This gives 19.4 sq. ft. of frontal area and then some fluff for tire frontal area I neglected to include.

Cg height for a 914 with a flat six is reasonable around 14 inches give or take. I recommend doubling this and then look at the results again. Gives you an indication of how much additional weight transfer and time reduction comes from getting more traction on the rear from increased weight transfer as Cg height increases.

Suggested engine inertia from academic paper referenced above for 2.0L VW TDI. Surely isn't a boxer motor and is probably too heavy but it will help offset the transmission which I've neglected.
0.246 Kg*m^2 which converts to 0.18 slug*ft^2

Transmission inertia - I neglected it. The flywheel and crank are included in the engine and are where the bulk of the inertia will come from. Likewise, I neglected axles. Neglecting these would make the model "optimistic".

The wheel inertias and diameters are pretty close at default settings.
Typical wheel is apporox. 26" diameter
Don't forget to double the default inertia to account for the 4 wheels on a car that have to be spooled up instead of only two.

Static Coeffieicent of Friction for a all out race tire is 1.5 nominal

The rolling coefficient of friction will be low (again only two rolling elements and based on motorycle driveline) but you can double it or bump up if you want. Again leaving as-is is optimistic.

Go ahead and start with something Viper(ish) of 400 lb*ft of toruqe flat lined across the entire RPM band for simplicity.

Have fun with it, you'll get an idea of just how hard it would be to break into 11-12 seconds due to traction control / tire slip. Look at the acceleration. To get to a Telsa P100D time of 10.72 sec 1/4 mile, you'll need to get the max launch acceleration up to about 1.4G. Varying the torque, gearing, and Cg height will change max acceleration potential to one degree or another.

PS: Link to site that will help ease rotational inertia conversions between Kg*m^2 and Imperial Slugs*ft^2

https://online.unitconverterpro.com/convers...t=4&val=.66
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Tdskip   0-60 for a 914/6 with 3.2?   Dec 22 2019, 01:45 PM
gms   The numbers are secondary to the driving experien...   Dec 22 2019, 01:54 PM
SirAndy   The numbers are secondary to the driving experien...   Dec 22 2019, 01:56 PM
Superhawk996   The numbers are secondary to the driving experie...   Dec 22 2019, 04:51 PM
Tdskip   Not bad . . . but you need AWD! :lol: The...   Dec 22 2019, 07:25 PM
Superhawk996   it’s the sensation of the unburstable torque ...   Dec 23 2019, 03:15 AM
Tdskip   You're describing what comes with instanta...   Dec 23 2019, 07:23 AM
Superhawk996   not what I am after or trying to describe. Thank...   Dec 23 2019, 08:09 AM
jd74914   Not bad . . . but you need AWD! :lol: Ther...   Dec 23 2019, 03:01 PM
Superhawk996   Not bad . . . but you need AWD! :lol: The...   Dec 23 2019, 03:30 PM
jd74914   [quote name='jd74914' post='2771948' date='Dec 23...   Dec 23 2019, 03:58 PM
Superhawk996   Dying to play with tuning on a DBW car-no one I ...   Dec 23 2019, 04:58 PM
Tdskip   @SirAndy - WOW. Thanks [b]@[url=http://www.914w...   Dec 22 2019, 02:02 PM
Coondog   I would think a six mated to a 915 trans would sho...   Dec 22 2019, 02:38 PM
mepstein   I would think a six mated to a 915 trans would sh...   Dec 22 2019, 02:52 PM
SirAndy   I would think a six mated to a 915 trans would sho...   Dec 22 2019, 03:12 PM
Tdskip   Taking off in 2nd has the advantage that you don...   Dec 22 2019, 07:17 PM
Tdskip   I would think a six mated to a 915 trans would sh...   Dec 22 2019, 02:56 PM
Marv's3.6six   I would think a six mated to a 915 trans would sh...   Dec 24 2019, 11:32 AM
mepstein   What was done to the 3.0. It could be stronger tha...   Dec 22 2019, 02:59 PM
Tdskip   What was done to the 3.0. It could be stronger th...   Dec 22 2019, 07:15 PM
IronHillRestorations   The 3.0 car I had years ago ( @GMS drove it) woul...   Dec 22 2019, 08:15 PM
gms   The 3.0 car I had years ago ( @[url=http://www.91...   Dec 23 2019, 12:51 PM
Steve   3.6 or v8 cars have no problems starting off in se...   Dec 22 2019, 08:26 PM
Coondog   3.6 or v8 cars have no problems starting off in s...   Dec 22 2019, 08:46 PM
Tdskip   No worries @superhawk996 , all good. Have a good...   Dec 23 2019, 08:21 AM
Jett   :) I am thinking about an i3 to deal with stop and...   Dec 23 2019, 10:06 AM
dr914@autoatlanta.com   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjp1hi28rug   Dec 23 2019, 10:23 AM
Cracker   HOPEFULLY, this driver only goes to "Show ...   Dec 26 2019, 10:23 AM
oakdalecurtis   Just a small point of mind blowing reference for t...   Dec 24 2019, 11:41 AM
sixnotfour   Just a small point of mind blowing reference for ...   Dec 24 2019, 11:43 AM
Cracker   I would think "at best" the time would b...   Dec 25 2019, 12:22 PM
sixnotfour   :agree: rolling start race with a 70 Z/28 stop li...   Dec 25 2019, 02:08 PM
Superhawk996   :agree: rolling start race with a 70 Z/28 stop l...   Dec 26 2019, 09:32 AM
Chi-town   If you're looking for the "push you back ...   Dec 27 2019, 11:33 AM
Andyrew   If you're looking for the "push you back...   Dec 27 2019, 01:34 PM
campbellcj   I've come to realize that if a car doesn't...   Dec 27 2019, 01:13 PM
Superhawk996   If you want a drag car you want a high Center of G...   Dec 27 2019, 01:43 PM
mepstein   A 3.2 is a great engine in a 914 or 911 because it...   Dec 27 2019, 02:07 PM
porschetub   A 3.2 is a great engine in a 914 or 911 because i...   Dec 28 2019, 10:55 PM
tomeric914   Ok, not a 3.2 but here is my drag strip slip from ...   Dec 29 2019, 11:17 AM
mb911   13.90 is really good 1/4 mile. My highly modded 7...   Dec 29 2019, 12:10 PM
Chi-town   My 02' WRX wagon ran 13.20 with bolt ons :lol:...   Dec 29 2019, 11:45 PM
Superhawk996   These days if it's not a sub 13 second car i...   Dec 30 2019, 11:18 AM
Tdskip   These days if it's not a sub 13 second car ...   Dec 30 2019, 02:55 PM
Superhawk996   With no soul, objectively better but subjectivel...   Dec 31 2019, 02:03 PM
mb911   For me our old cars are about the sound, smells, a...   Dec 30 2019, 03:58 PM
GeorgeRud   Yeah, you’re comparing apples to oranges on a dr...   Dec 30 2019, 04:39 PM
Superhawk996   Yeah, you’re comparing apples to oranges on a d...   Dec 31 2019, 02:07 PM
Chi-town   Yeah, you’re comparing apples to oranges on a d...   Dec 30 2019, 04:45 PM
GeorgeRud   There’s an outfit that’s making a conversion k...   Dec 30 2019, 05:11 PM
GeorgeRud   RE: 0-60 for a 914/6 with 3.2?   Dec 30 2019, 05:12 PM
tomeric914   Where's that WRX Wagon today? What about that...   Dec 30 2019, 05:38 PM
Superhawk996   Where's that WRX Wagon today? What about th...   Dec 31 2019, 02:14 PM
tomeric914   @[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showu...   Dec 31 2019, 05:13 PM
Superhawk996   Now for the kicker, we came in 3rd place overall...   Dec 31 2019, 06:13 PM
Cracker   [quote name='Superhawk996' date='Dec 3...   Dec 31 2019, 05:15 PM
Superhawk996   I might have to take exception with you here.....   Dec 31 2019, 06:02 PM
Cracker   Thanks - opinion. Cracker   Jan 1 2020, 01:00 AM
ConeDodger   Fish climbing trees... No curves, no fun.   Dec 31 2019, 06:32 PM
Superhawk996   No curves, no fun. :headbanger:   Dec 31 2019, 06:36 PM
Maltese Falcon   Before the 914 was available, this was the scene ...   Jan 1 2020, 01:41 AM
Tdskip   It would have been cool to be part of that and the...   Jan 1 2020, 10:20 AM
Maltese Falcon   It would have been cool to be part of that and th...   Jan 1 2020, 11:28 AM
Cracker   ...we took our dangerous street racing OFF the hi...   Jan 1 2020, 12:14 PM
Superhawk996   This thread really got me thinking about what the ...   Jan 1 2020, 02:21 PM


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