Attention Electrical Gurus, Need help with windshield washer wiring Options

[bbrock]

Right after ordering a complete Car Magic kit to convert my windshield washer to electric, I read Sir Andy's excellent tech article on the conversion. The idea of pulling power for the washer pump off the intermittent wiper feed so the washer is activated by pulling back on the wiper lever was too elegant not to try.

I happened to have this nifty vintage VW style splitter I bought some time ago for not other reason than I thought it might come in handy for some future custom wiring project. It was just the ticket for splitting off of my intermittent washer relay to power the washer pump.



After hooking everything up, I pulled back on the wiper lever and HUZZAH! The washers squirted and the wipers ran for two sweeps and parked. Pretty slick! I couldn't understand how the intermittent wipers would work when the lever was pulled down to turn the intermittent wipers on. I pull down on the lever to test them and nothing. As soon as I unplug the washer pump, the intermittent wipers start running. I'm not sure how the intermittent relay works, but thinking the timer is from charging a capacitor which then "bump starts" the wipers to run a single cycle.

Is there is a reasonably simple way to isolate the pump so it allows the intermittent mechanism to run without activating the washer pump? Could be a fun project. Or should I just go back to the original plan of installing the Car Magic switch? I just like the idea of minimizing the wiring.

[Superhawk996]

Now that I've had some time to think about the LVD solution here are some thoughts.

I think the same overall goal of disconnecting the pump ground path from the intermittent relay could be achieved with a simple MOSFET transistor. The control input to the MOSFET gate would be the 12v input from Black/Brown stalk switch,

I can't tell from the specs for the proposed LDV if it can handle inductive loads or is just for resistive load like a light, LED, or battery.

Inductive loads (relays, motors) can generate voltage spikes that will damage electronic components when they are shut off abruptly. If a MOSFET were being used to switch the washer pump, I'd say that you would want to put a flyback diode in the circuit to protect the circuit.

Can't tell if the LVD proposed has internal flyback diodes. Maybe, maybe not depending on whether they designed it to handle inductive loads. You could easily add your own externally.

For $8 - can't go wrong even it it eventually dies from an inductive load. At that point you could switch to a MOSFET switch like this for around the same cost and is even smaller:

https://www.amazon.com/ANMBEST-High-Power-A...-spons&th=1

[bbrock]

Now that I've had some time to think about the LVD solution here are some thoughts.

I think the same overall goal of disconnecting the pump ground path from the intermittent relay could be achieved with a simple MOSFET transistor. The control input to the MOSFET gate would be the 12v input from Black/Brown stalk switch,

I can't tell from the specs for the proposed LDV if it can handle inductive loads or is just for resistive load like a light, LED, or battery.

Inductive loads (relays, motors) can generate voltage spikes that will damage electronic components when they are shut off abruptly. If a MOSFET were being used to switch the washer pump, I'd say that you would want to put a flyback diode in the circuit to protect the circuit.

Can't tell if the LVD proposed has internal flyback diodes. Maybe, maybe not depending on whether they designed it to handle inductive loads. You could easily add your own externally.

For $8 - can't go wrong even it it eventually dies from an inductive load. At that point you could switch to a MOSFET switch like this for around the same cost and is even smaller:

https://www.amazon.com/ANMBEST-High-Power-A...-spons&th=1

Don't think that one will work. It switches gnd but not vcc. I need the other way round. There is a question and couple reviews about it.

I looked at mosfet circuits but the potential for a plug-n-play solution for <$8 seemed a no brainer. I found a couple DIY circuits that look very similar to this module when built. They both used flyback diodes. Hoping this does the same. I think I spy at least 3 diodes in the pics on Amazon. Can't say for sure.

[Spoke]

Now that I've had some time to think about the LVD solution here are some thoughts.

I think the same overall goal of disconnecting the pump ground path from the intermittent relay could be achieved with a simple MOSFET transistor. The control input to the MOSFET gate would be the 12v input from Black/Brown stalk switch,

I can't tell from the specs for the proposed LDV if it can handle inductive loads or is just for resistive load like a light, LED, or battery.

Inductive loads (relays, motors) can generate voltage spikes that will damage electronic components when they are shut off abruptly. If a MOSFET were being used to switch the washer pump, I'd say that you would want to put a flyback diode in the circuit to protect the circuit.

Can't tell if the LVD proposed has internal flyback diodes. Maybe, maybe not depending on whether they designed it to handle inductive loads. You could easily add your own externally.

For $8 - can't go wrong even it it eventually dies from an inductive load. At that point you could switch to a MOSFET switch like this for around the same cost and is even smaller:

https://www.amazon.com/ANMBEST-High-Power-A...-spons&th=1

Don't think that one will work. It switches gnd but not vcc. I need the other way round. There is a question and couple reviews about it.

I looked at mosfet circuits but the potential for a plug-n-play solution for <$8 seemed a no brainer. I found a couple DIY circuits that look very similar to this module when built. They both used flyback diodes. Hoping this does the same. I think I spy at least 3 diodes in the pics on Amazon. Can't say for sure.

@bbrock

I think I agree with you about the switching. The intermittent relay only functions in the J position when S1 is open. Thus grounding pin S on the relay will disable it. This is why tapping the washer motor on S1 to ground disabled the relay.

Therefore it can be assumed that the input pin S on the relay has an internal pull-up circuit to activate it when the net connected to pin S is open circuited and pin S voltage will float upwards to some positive voltage. Is this the voltage you measured or was going to measure?

If pin S does float upwards then putting a FET input on pin S will likely turn on the washer when the intermittent relay is active (in J position).

[bbrock]

I think I agree with you about the switching. The intermittent relay only functions in the J position when S1 is open. Thus grounding pin S on the relay will disable it. This is why tapping the washer motor on S1 to ground disabled the relay.

Therefore it can be assumed that the input pin S on the relay has an internal pull-up circuit to activate it when the net connected to pin S is open circuited and pin S voltage will float upwards to some positive voltage. Is this the voltage you measured or was going to measure?

Yes, but the voltage readings are small. In the J position with the washer disconnected, I read ~4-11mV which cycles repeatedly. I didn't time the cycles but they seemed like they might be about what the wiper intervals are. Does that sound right?

If pin S does float upwards then putting a FET input on pin S will likely turn on the washer when the intermittent relay is active (in J position).

This sounds interesting except I don't want the washer to run in the J position. Washer should run only in P position and only the intermittent relay should run in J position.

I shouldn't have called this a "simple" circuit before. I should have called it a German circuit. Simple in design but complex in function. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Superhawk996]

I shouldn't have called this a "simple" circuit before. I should have called it a German circuit. Simple in design but complex in function. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

Well said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

That is why I love schematics. I've messed with that stalk switch about 20 years ago but no way to recall all that from memory. The 3 track rotary switch on the motor armature and the inertia brake function further complicate things. Schematics . . . Schematics . . . Schematics. Must have for troubleshooting.


FYI - I was able to locate all those schematics on the interwebz so I didn't end up having to pull my reference materials out of packing boxes. You're still a dick for making me find the schematics to help you . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) But then again, I do owe you for letting me drive your car!

Please do put up a proper "How To" write up once you get this whole thing sorted. It really should get pinned over in the classics section.

[bbrock]

I shouldn't have called this a "simple" circuit before. I should have called it a German circuit. Simple in design but complex in function. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

Well said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

That is why I love schematics. I've messed with that stalk switch about 20 years ago but no way to recall all that from memory. The 3 track rotary switch on the motor armature and the inertia brake function further complicate things. Schematics . . . Schematics . . . Schematics. Must have for troubleshooting.


FYI - I was able to locate all those schematics on the interwebz so I didn't end up having to pull my reference materials out of packing boxes. You're still a dick for making me find the schematics to help you . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) But then again, I do owe you for letting me drive your car!

Please do put up a proper "How To" write up once you get this whole thing sorted. It really should get pinned over in the classics section.

Didn't I post the full schematic of the circuit at the bottom of page 1? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I do appreciate the help. It's good to have multiple eyes thinking through the problem. I may revisit a simple MOSFET circuit. I think it might be possible with just the FET, a couple resistors and a diode which would be simpler and fully solid state compared with the LVD module. Will start with LVD and go from there.

I still say we didn't need the full schematic to troubleshoot this problem though. We only needed to know how the S1 wire is supposed to behave because that is the only wire modified by connecting the pump. The switch diagram tells the whole story on that: Open in position "J", 12v, in Position "0", and grounded in all others. That provides enough info to work on solutions. The rest was was fun and interesting, and I learned a lot more about how to read these circuit flow style schematics, but not mission critical. Interesting through that the old style schematics don't provide nearly enough detail to even figure out that one wire. Doesn't even include the intermittent wire or position.



Thinking about bench testing the LVD module when it arrives. I think the critical tests will be that resistance between B+ and B-, and between B+ and Out+ need to be open with 0v on the brwn/blk wire. Resistance between B+ and Out+ should be near 0 ohms above ~10v on brwn/blk, and the resistance needs to drop without significant lag when the voltage is applied. Anything else I should be looking for?

[Superhawk996]

I still say we didn't need the full schematic to troubleshoot this problem though.

I did . . . just because that is the way I'm wired (pun intended) and was trained.

Probably the biggest piece for me was understanding how you had the intermittent relay wired in. For me, I need to see the big picture 1st before I can understand the details of what you had done. Words aren't good at conveying electrical circuit information. That is why schematics were invented.

I'm just hoping that you come up with a nice solution that allows operation of both the electric washer pump AND intermittent wipers since that is where I want to end up.

[lesorubcheek]

If the goal is to have an open circuit at S on the intermittent relay, a very simple solution may also be just adding a diode inline. I tested a 5 amp diode in a simple circuit with a 12v bulb and the meter shows 1.3 M ohms to ground on the side that feeds the 12V, which is where the tap is presently the relay. It's not an open circuit, but may be high enough for the intermittent function to work in the J position. It'd be a quick and easy test. Just a thought.



Dan

[Spoke]

If the goal is to have an open circuit at S on the intermittent relay, a very simple solution may also be just adding a diode inline. I tested a 5 amp diode in a simple circuit with a 12v bulb and the meter shows 1.3 M ohms to ground on the side that feeds the 12V, which is where the tap is presently the relay. It's not an open circuit, but may be high enough for the intermittent function to work in the J position. It'd be a quick and easy test. Just a thought.



Dan

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

If indeed there is little voltage on this net when the intermittent relay is active then the diode or two would be a simple solution.

[bbrock]

If the goal is to have an open circuit at S on the intermittent relay, a very simple solution may also be just adding a diode inline. I tested a 5 amp diode in a simple circuit with a 12v bulb and the meter shows 1.3 M ohms to ground on the side that feeds the 12V, which is where the tap is presently the relay. It's not an open circuit, but may be high enough for the intermittent function to work in the J position. It'd be a quick and easy test. Just a thought.

Dan

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

It indeed there is little voltage on this net when the intermittent relay is active then the diode or two would be a simple solution.

You have me curious. Did a little reading to learn about forward voltage. Sounds promising. I should have an assortment of diodes in the bin. Any recommendations on what to try?

[lesorubcheek]

If the goal is to have an open circuit at S on the intermittent relay, a very simple solution may also be just adding a diode inline. I tested a 5 amp diode in a simple circuit with a 12v bulb and the meter shows 1.3 M ohms to ground on the side that feeds the 12V, which is where the tap is presently the relay. It's not an open circuit, but may be high enough for the intermittent function to work in the J position. It'd be a quick and easy test. Just a thought.

Dan

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

It indeed there is little voltage on this net when the intermittent relay is active then the diode or two would be a simple solution.

You have me curious. Did a little reading to learn about forward voltage. Sounds promising. I should have an assortment of diodes in the bin. Any recommendations on what to try?

We recently used some 20A 50V Schottkys for isolating the turn signals flashing when using the remote key lock. Gross overkill, but they were $1.50 each, so why not add some insurance. Any idea how many amps the washer pump motor draws? As long as you have headroom for amps and the voltage, should be good to try.

Dan