External oil cooler kit? Options

[neilbardsley]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165865762191?mkc...&media=COPY

Is this kit compatible with the type 4 filter? Seems like pretty easy add on?

I would prefer a coupling that didn't use the external filter until 180f but can't find a complete kit.

[technicalninja]

If Chris puts his name on it, it's got my vote for sure. I am considering one of these for my /4, she runs around 210 - 220 on a hot day.

That’s perfect. Why would you change anything?! You don’t need additional oil cooling.

Zach

When I run at 85 or so MPH, she gets a bit over 230.

The horror (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Lots of modern sports cars will push 250-270 under load and that’s with an oil to water cooler. Air cooled motorcycles pushed hard will run 300.

Trying to make air cooled engines run 180 under load is folly and isn’t even desirable.

Just my $0.02 based on decades of testing modern cars as a day job and messing with air cooled engines since I was a kid.

Zach nailed it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Unless you're running a dedicated track car at WOT you WANT the oil to hit at LEAST 220 to vaporize the moisture in it.

Most folks don't realize when you burn a gallon of gasoline you produce ALMOST a gallon of water vapor in the exhaust. Some of that get past the rings and will dilute the oil after time.

I would spec a 210/220degree T-sat on most street applications but ONLY AFTER installing both and accurate oil temp sender and an accurate CHT (on an aircooled) and verifying I needed the extra complication that an external oil system creates.

I'd want to see constant temps above 250 before I started adding coolers.
I would use fully synthetic oil as it has increased temperature resistance.
A short run up to 280-290 would not cause me to "shut down".

A streetcar that only hit 180 would bug the crap out of me.
It would require 3 times the oil changes that a 230 degree system needs.

OP, you are in England. I'd bet you don't need anything more than the stock cooler (a good one in clean shape) unless you were putting it under severe load for extended periods of time.
Properly diagnosis is the first step.

You need temp sensors and 4 hours of driving data before you need additional cooling...

[neilbardsley]

If Chris puts his name on it, it's got my vote for sure. I am considering one of these for my /4, she runs around 210 - 220 on a hot day.

That’s perfect. Why would you change anything?! You don’t need additional oil cooling.

Zach

When I run at 85 or so MPH, she gets a bit over 230.

The horror (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Lots of modern sports cars will push 250-270 under load and that’s with an oil to water cooler. Air cooled motorcycles pushed hard will run 300.

Trying to make air cooled engines run 180 under load is folly and isn’t even desirable.

Just my $0.02 based on decades of testing modern cars as a day job and messing with air cooled engines since I was a kid.

Zach nailed it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Unless you're running a dedicated track car at WOT you WANT the oil to hit at LEAST 220 to vaporize the moisture in it.

Most folks don't realize when you burn a gallon of gasoline you produce ALMOST a gallon of water vapor in the exhaust. Some of that get past the rings and will dilute the oil after time.

I would spec a 210/220degree T-sat on most street applications but ONLY AFTER installing both and accurate oil temp sender and an accurate CHT (on an aircooled) and verifying I needed the extra complication that an external oil system creates.

I'd want to see constant temps above 250 before I started adding coolers.
I would use fully synthetic oil as it has increased temperature resistance.
A short run up to 280-290 would not cause me to "shut down".

A streetcar that only hit 180 would bug the crap out of me.
It would require 3 times the oil changes that a 230 degree system needs.

OP, you are in England. I'd bet you don't need anything more than the stock cooler (a good one in clean shape) unless you were putting it under severe load for extended periods of time.
Properly diagnosis is the first step.

You need temp sensors and 4 hours of driving data before you need additional cooling...

I completely agree for most local journeys this is overkill.

Most take such short trips that don't get the oil warm enough.

However, here I'm talking about longer journeys. Like our drive to Florence last year. I would like to cruise at 180/210 not 220/250. I think that water will heat quicker than oil so the vapour will boil off before oil gets to 210?

[Superhawk996]

I think that water will heat quicker than oil so the vapour will boil off before oil gets to 210?

There is so much misunderstanding of oil and temps that it’s hard to get folks to forget what they were told by grandpa, their father, or what they have read for years.

The problem is that 180F oil will not “boil” off water condensed in the oil. Not to be pedantic but water boils at 212F (sea level). So no, water will not boil water off and out of oil at 180F.

In fact oil at 180F oil promotes condensation in a running engine.

Why?

As Ninja stated, you have water vapor (212F +) entering the crankcase as ring blow by. The temperature of that water vapor is well above 212F.

So now that hot water vapor hits 180F oil in the case. What happens?

If you said that the hot water vapor condenses, onto, and because of the cool 180F oil you would be correct.

So not only are you not removing water vapor at 180F, you are promoting condensation into it.

I know that I’ll not likely change anyone’s mind that has already made it up based on mythology but physics is physics and it doesn’t change based on personal opinions.

[neilbardsley]

I think that water will heat quicker than oil so the vapour will boil off before oil gets to 210?

There is so much misunderstanding of oil and temps that it’s hard to get folks to forget what they were told by grandpa, their father, or what they have read for years.

The problem is that 180F oil will not “boil” off water condensed in the oil. Not to be pedantic but water boils at 212F (sea level). So no, water will not boil water off and out of oil at 180F.

In fact oil at 180F oil promotes condensation in a running engine.

Why?

As Ninja stated, you have water vapor (212F +) entering the crankcase as ring blow by. The temperature of that water vapor is well above 212F.

So now that hot water vapor hits 180F oil in the case. What happens?

If you said that the hot water vapor condenses, onto, and because of the cool 180F oil you would be correct.

So not only are you not removing water vapor at 180F, you are promoting condensation into it.

I know that I’ll not likely change anyone’s mind that has already made it up based on mythology but physics is physics and it doesn’t change based on personal opinions.

I'm aware that water doesn't boil below it boiling point but for oil to heat up to 180 there is a temperature source that is hotter? I'm just claiming the water will heat up quicker than oil and boil off before the oil gets to 210?

[Superhawk996]

I'm aware that water doesn't boil below it boiling point but for oil to heat up to 180 there is a temperature source that is hotter? I'm just claiming the water will heat up quicker than oil and boil off before the oil gets to 210?

I’m not sure I understand your question.

One fluid does not warm faster than the other. If we have oil and water mixed (emulsified) and heat the fluid, the whole fluid heats at a uniform rate. Even if the oil and water were not emulsified and the two are separated into layers, both layers will heat at a uniform rate. As the fluid approaches the boiling point of water, yes, the water will boil, turn into vapor, and it will eventually be boiled off at which point the temperature of the oil can rise past 212F once the temperature water is expelled.

Don’t try this at home. Hopefully everyone has experienced the effect of a drop of water entering hot oil above 212F. It immediately vaporizes the water and that light, rapidly expanding vapor is explosively expelled from the oil. Very dangerous.

Setting aside boiling temp, vapor pressure, evaporation, etc., it is a question of equilibrium. If water vapor is entering the oil quicker than it can be expelled, oil sludges and emulsifies. It is an established fact that the hotter the oil is run, the less risk there is of sludging and oil contamination by water, and even fuel if run rich enough and cool enough.

The thing that is so odd to me is why so many try to make an air cooled engine run oil at 180F when their daily driver, modern car isn’t running at 180F. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[neilbardsley]

I'm aware that water doesn't boil below it boiling point but for oil to heat up to 180 there is a temperature source that is hotter? I'm just claiming the water will heat up quicker than oil and boil off before the oil gets to 210?

I’m not sure I understand your question.

One fluid does not warm faster than the other. If we have oil and water mixed (emulsified) and heat the fluid, the whole fluid heats at a uniform rate. Even if the oil and water were not emulsified and the two are separated into layers, both layers will heat at a uniform rate. As the fluid approaches the boiling point of water, yes, the water will boil, turn into vapor, and it will eventually be boiled off at which point the temperature of the oil can rise past 212F once the temperature water is expelled.

Don’t try this at home. Hopefully everyone has experienced the effect of a drop of water entering hot oil above 212F. It immediately vaporizes the water and that light, rapidly expanding vapor is explosively expelled from the oil. Very dangerous.

Setting aside boiling temp, vapor pressure, evaporation, etc., it is a question of equilibrium. If water vapor is entering the oil quicker than it can be expelled, oil sludges and emulsifies. It is an established fact that the hotter the oil is run, the less risk there is of sludging and oil contamination by water, and even fuel if run rich enough and cool enough.

The thing that is so odd to me is why so many try to make an air cooled engine run oil at 180F when their daily driver, modern car isn’t running at 180F. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I take it back. It water needs more energy input than oil to heat.