First start after 25 years - problems Options

[spencercanon]

Hi all this is my first post here! I recently picked up a ’75 1.8 that was last registered in 2001! Pretty good barn find, in my opinion. It was up in the high desert of California, so no rust, great mechanicals, all the electrics work. Just flaking paint, decayed interior …and an engine that probably hasn’t run since the Clinton Administration.

The TLDR is the car has started and run for 10 seconds but now won’t start at all.

A quick timeline of what I’ve done/tested:
- Dropped the engine, adjusted valves (encountered something strange that I’ll ask about later)
- Old starter could barely turn the engine over. Replaced it with a hi-torque.
- good compression
- Replaced the old broken bellows thermostat
- New fuel lines, vac lines, spark plugs and wires
- deleted EGR system
- Fuel pump was getting power but dead - replaced it.
- Coil’s good. Cap and rotor look good. Points gapped.
- The L-Jet AFM had been opened and the adjustment wheel inside was so loose that it the flap wasn’t closing fully so the pump was running continuously. I rotated the wheel until there was enough tension to turn off the fuel pump. (I would have normally never touched the AFM!)

Put the engine back in and the car started on the key immediately, ran for 10 seconds and died. I tried again, it started and ran for 5 seconds, then popped loudly back up the intake with enough force to blow the intake boot off the AFM. Since then, it hasn’t started.

Couple notes:
- after the pop, I felt like the intake pipe connector hoses were probably leaking, so I put hose clamps on them. With those clamped down and fresh vac lines everywhere, I’m pretty sure there aren’t any more leaks.
- oil filler breather nipple broke so I’ve taped it off until I can get a new one. But I’m not sure how this affects the vacuum… should it be left open for now?
- I don’t know the fuel pressure but it does have a new pump and lines so I’d be surprised if pressure is the problem.
- tested injector ballasts and got correct ohm readings
- It did start and run on its own spark and fuel, so I assume ECU and injectors are OK.
- the AFM is obviously an issue … probably considerably off. But again, the car did at least start a few times.

So now what?
- I’d like to check/test anything I can before I start buying replacement components.
- Are there baseline settings for idle speed screw, and at least a “best guess” AFM setup?
- Should I just buy another AFM now, knowing this one may never be right again?
- could the intake backfire have damaged something?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[technicalninja]

TLDR: Sodium filled valves are not inherently bad and have earned their place in Automotive world.


I received a PM earlier today from another member regarding the possibility that I was leading folks astray with my disdain for sodium filled valves.

This member, who will remain un-named by me, is a pillar of the 914World community and most of the time he and I are LOCK STEP together in how we see repairs, diagnosis, and basic car stuff altogether.

We are both VERY opinionated and prone to argue when we disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

I seriously respect his input however and read every single post he makes as often his perspective on an issue is spot on.

When he sent "Hey Bitch, stop dissing SF valves" I took a step back and looked at them through his (and my) eyes a-fresh.
He didn't use "Bitch" which is the proper honorific IMO.

And, truth be told, I've NEVER seen the sodium. Ever! Not once!
You need to realize, I've been rebuilding foreign car engines for DECADES!

I've done shitloads of engines that have sodium filled valves. This is far more common in European vehicles, but I've never seen a burned or broken SF valve.

I've never even thought about this before his comments.


This says they WORK in my book.


And I've seen lots of burned valves, both standard and stainless.

It seems they trash their guides more often which makes sense as the sodium is in there for heat transfer reasons.

He made me ask some questions to myself...

Have I ever had a problem with a SF valve? NO
Know anyone else who has had any issues? NO
Do I know of a single instance of fire regarding these valves? NO

As for machining them. I've personally refaced (lightly) 100+ SF valves myself.
I've been aware of the possible pitfalls and would wear more protective gear when doing them, but I never had ANY ISSUE AT ALL completing the machining.

Also, and this is important, back when they were designed/provisioned "sodium filled" was not only MUCH better for heat transfer it was ALSO more expensive to produce.

Stainless was rare back then (I cannot remember any early stainless that long ago) and what was installed was the best solution for the time.

I intentionally bought a set of used valves out of a GM LS6 engine (2003 ish) because of their weight. Those were hollow stem stainless intakes and sodium filled stainless exhaust. These valves are 5 grams heavier than titanium valves of identical size without the drawbacks of titanium.
And now someone will PM me "Stop dissing titanium, Bitch!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

So, even I have sodium filled valves that I fully intend to use...

He was RIGHT!

There is NOTHING wrong with sodium filled valves.
They might be more critical regarding machine work.

Now, if you are having the valves refaced by a machine shop, I would MAKE SURE they were aware of the fact they are sodium filled.
It wouldn't surprise me if most machine shops refused to machine them now-a-days.

And, thinking about this has created a new "thing" for me somewhere down the road.

I WANT to see the sodium, I want to see how far out the valve face the sodium actually goes. I'd bet the sodium recess is more like a bulb than a full faced valve and this would mean there is NO WAY you could actually hit the pocket without cutting 1/3rd the diameter (or more) out of the valve.
I want to drop a chunk of it into water and then ATF.
Why ATF?
Because that is what every valve grinding machine I've ever operated used as a "cutting" fluid.
If it won't ignite in ATF all of the "oh shit be careful" was for naught.

And I LOVE to blow shit up!
Just OUTSIDE the shop...

Now I want to cut up a valve! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I have plenty of trashed 2.0L T4 exhaust valves anyway.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

A final thought regarding valve material.
I VASTLY prefer Inconel over everything else at this time.
That material appears to be nearly indestructible.
Inconel is very expensive.
I have no idea if Inconel valves are available for T4s...

[barefoot]

TLDR: Sodium filled valves are not inherently bad and have earned their place in Automotive world.


I received a PM earlier today from another member regarding the possibility that I was leading folks astray with my disdain for sodium filled valves.

This member, who will remain un-named by me, is a pillar of the 914World community and most of the time he and I are LOCK STEP together in how we see repairs, diagnosis, and basic car stuff altogether.

We are both VERY opinionated and prone to argue when we disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

I seriously respect his input however and read every single post he makes as often his perspective on an issue is spot on.

When he sent "Hey Bitch, stop dissing SF valves" I took a step back and looked at them through his (and my) eyes a-fresh.
He didn't use "Bitch" which is the proper honorific IMO.

And, truth be told, I've NEVER seen the sodium. Ever! Not once!
You need to realize, I've been rebuilding foreign car engines for DECADES!

I've done shitloads of engines that have sodium filled valves. This is far more common in European vehicles, but I've never seen a burned or broken SF valve.

I've never even thought about this before his comments.


This says they WORK in my book.


And I've seen lots of burned valves, both standard and stainless.

It seems they trash their guides more often which makes sense as the sodium is in there for heat transfer reasons.

He made me ask some questions to myself...

Have I ever had a problem with a SF valve? NO
Know anyone else who has had any issues? NO
Do I know of a single instance of fire regarding these valves? NO

As for machining them. I've personally refaced (lightly) 100+ SF valves myself.
I've been aware of the possible pitfalls and would wear more protective gear when doing them, but I never had ANY ISSUE AT ALL completing the machining.

Also, and this is important, back when they were designed/provisioned "sodium filled" was not only MUCH better for heat transfer it was ALSO more expensive to produce.

Stainless was rare back then (I cannot remember any early stainless that long ago) and what was installed was the best solution for the time.

I intentionally bought a set of used valves out of a GM LS6 engine (2003 ish) because of their weight. Those were hollow stem stainless intakes and sodium filled stainless exhaust. These valves are 5 grams heavier than titanium valves of identical size without the drawbacks of titanium.
And now someone will PM me "Stop dissing titanium, Bitch!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

So, even I have sodium filled valves that I fully intend to use...

He was RIGHT!

There is NOTHING wrong with sodium filled valves.
They might be more critical regarding machine work.

Now, if you are having the valves refaced by a machine shop, I would MAKE SURE they were aware of the fact they are sodium filled.
It wouldn't surprise me if most machine shops refused to machine them now-a-days.

And, thinking about this has created a new "thing" for me somewhere down the road.

I WANT to see the sodium, I want to see how far out the valve face the sodium actually goes. I'd bet the sodium recess is more like a bulb than a full faced valve and this would mean there is NO WAY you could actually hit the pocket without cutting 1/3rd the diameter (or more) out of the valve.
I want to drop a chunk of it into water and then ATF.
Why ATF?
Because that is what every valve grinding machine I've ever operated used as a "cutting" fluid.
If it won't ignite in ATF all of the "oh shit be careful" was for naught.

And I LOVE to blow shit up!
Just OUTSIDE the shop...

Now I want to cut up a valve! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I have plenty of trashed 2.0L T4 exhaust valves anyway.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

A final thought regarding valve material.
I VASTLY prefer Inconel over everything else at this time.
That material appears to be nearly indestructible.
Inconel is very expensive.
I have no idea if Inconel valves are available for T4s...

using 50 yr old sodium filled exhaust valves is VERY RISKY.
When rebuilding my 2L heads preparing to remove valves, i gently raped the valve heads just to see if any were frozen in the guides. One head popped right off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)