Home  |  Forums  |  914 Info  |  Blogs
 
914World.com - The fastest growing online 914 community!
 
Porsche, and the Porsche crest are registered trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG. This site is not affiliated with Porsche in any way.
Its only purpose is to provide an online forum for car enthusiasts. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners.
 

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Twin Spark, who's done it? how?
brer
post Jan 17 2007, 10:13 PM
Post #101


Advanced Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,555
Joined: 10-March 05
From: san diego
Member No.: 3,736
Region Association: None



I have seen the twin spark dizzies. Straight forward.

Then there are the crank fire twin pack setups. ok.


what else can be used?
Piggyback systems?




(picture is for entertainment purposes only. this is not my motor)


Attached image(s)
Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Replies
Jake Raby
post Jan 18 2007, 04:51 PM
Post #102


Engine Surgeon
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 9,394
Joined: 31-August 03
From: Lost
Member No.: 1,095
Region Association: South East States



We perfected it last year with the 257 HP, 2.3L "Mighty Spyder" engine after about 6 months of cutting, fixturing and testing the procedures and plug placement.

Here is an example(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/msheads/slides/Arnett%20manx%20058.jpg)

This is serious business, not to be attemted by those that lack fixturing/machining experience. It requires extensive preheating, welding and post cooling of the head castings, these heads pictured has 9 hours of solid weld time into them.

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/msheads/slides/Arnett%20manx%20065.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/msheads/slides/Arnett%20manx%20052.jpg)

To do these first heads was a HUGE task, even for Len and myself to tackle. It required buying a dozen different spark plugs andseeing what worked best physically and then we had to work out the heat ranges. The fixturing process sacrificed 4-5 heads that needed to be cut up to provide the necessary approach angle to get the spark plug out of the way of the pushrod tube, exhaust stub and allow the plug wire to be installed- all of this was done with a 10mm spark plug- nothing else will fit and provide clearance.

When we finished these heads we had them digitized fully, so now all twin plug engines are completed from these tool paths and programs via 5 axis CNC machining which is a requirement to repeat these processes at anything less than a 2,000 buck expenditure...

Now here are my thoughts on this modification.
1- If you don't intend running more than 10;1 CR on pump gas or 13:1 on race gas don't bother with the mods because you'll never gain the benefit they'll offer

2- If you have a bore smaller than 96mm you won't be able to fit both plugs, nor will the flame front of the smaller bore lend it's self to the mods

3- If you plan on doing this mod, but retaining a dizzy you need to reconsider where to spend your money and thats because direct ignition with ONE plug would be a better choice all around than spending money on a dual plug mod only to slap 1970s technology on it for firing purposes!

4- Big bores love it, all my engines with larger than 102mm bore are getting this as standard, we are building two of them now- one N/A 2.9L and another 2.5 EFI/Intercooled boosted engine. The differences that can be seen with big bores and dual plugs are apparent, even at idle. The 2.3l ENGINE THAT MADE 257hp DID SO WITH ONLY A 34 POUND FUEL INJECTOR!!!Thats totally unheard of with single plugs.

5- He who thinks that conventional timing will work optimum with these arrangements has another thing coming, we have seen engines that need as little as 18 degrees of full advance to have optimum EGT/CHT and BSFC, normally these engines with a single plug would require at least TEN more degrees of advance to reach this point. That yells efficiency loud and clear and it also means that EVERYTHING about tuning the dual plug equipped engine changes and you'll be hard pressed to ever tune one without a very well equipped dyno.

So with that being said our LE 200 N/A and LE 220/LE 230 Turbo/large cc N/A heads heads have the option of dual plugging. It adds 1K to their price tag, but the work is done spot on with CNC repeatability.

I have a custom dizzy made from a Nissan Z22 engine set up that offers twin plugs, but I'd never try it without direct fire... Why???

Well this is why, in our experience a dizzy simply cannot offer the ignition manipulation that these mods work best with. The advance curve of a conventionally fired engine is linear as RPM increases, these plugs don't like advance at higher RPM and with a dizzy its difficult to accurately pull timing away from the engine as RPM increases...

The "Mighty Spyder" engine utilized RAT/SDS Engine management with our custom dual coil pack enhancement. With this set up a standard SDS "F" system can be made to fire twin plugs easily with a clean installation...

Its a great mod if you accept the alterations it requires. I'll be happy to help anyone accomplish this mod if they purchase our CNC twin plug heads, I have several combos cooked up that work very well with these mods.

Don't think that a local machinist can do this simply, or easily- doing it correctly gave us a workout and these engines are all we touch.

Tuning the "Mighty Spyder" took us 3 solid days, the first pulls were only 200HP, we tuned another SIXTY into it.


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
brer   Twin Spark   Jan 17 2007, 10:13 PM
brer   anyone guess what i'm thinking?   Jan 17 2007, 10:34 PM
r_towle   hall sensor, coil on plug dual plug...? I think J...   Jan 17 2007, 10:36 PM
Aaron Cox   jake did it... use a v8 unilite cap and make a cu...   Jan 17 2007, 10:49 PM
Twystd1   First off. I have not done twin plug....... YET......   Jan 17 2007, 10:51 PM
brer   Curses that Jake! :lol: I knew someone ...   Jan 17 2007, 10:56 PM
ClayPerrine   Even easier.. use a Nissan 4 cylinder pickup truck...   Jan 17 2007, 11:02 PM
brer   this cap with the dual channel rotor correct?   Jan 17 2007, 11:11 PM
ClayPerrine   this cap with the dual channel rotor correct? ...   Jan 18 2007, 07:48 AM
Aaron Cox   dude... look at the mallory unilte angle.. i think...   Jan 17 2007, 11:51 PM
Twystd1   Brer, In the picture you posted at the beginning o...   Jan 17 2007, 11:53 PM
McMark   Our esteemed Mike Mueller and I had a conversation...   Jan 18 2007, 01:31 AM
brer   Our esteemed Mike Mueller and I had a conversatio...   Jan 18 2007, 10:36 AM
Twystd1   McMark, Thats why I am confused about this thread...   Jan 18 2007, 01:39 AM
ottox914   All this is cool, but for the type 4 motor, where/...   Jan 18 2007, 08:58 AM
ClayPerrine   All this is cool, but for the type 4 motor, where...   Jan 18 2007, 09:11 AM
brer   I posted this to also ask how others had done it. ...   Jan 18 2007, 10:48 AM
BigDBass   This seems like a good place to ask my newbie ques...   Jan 18 2007, 11:20 AM
Aaron Cox   twin plugging allows you to run up to 1 more point...   Jan 18 2007, 12:20 PM
brer   cuz its one higher.. right? 11. (spinal tap)   Jan 18 2007, 01:36 PM
ottox914   Anyone got any good pics of some twin plug heads, ...   Jan 18 2007, 01:48 PM
McMark   Ballpark: $$$$ expensive. ;)   Jan 18 2007, 04:34 PM
brer   How does $100 hr. sound? :welder: i'm...   Jan 18 2007, 04:48 PM
Jake Raby   We perfected it last year with the 257 HP, 2.3L ...   Jan 18 2007, 04:51 PM
alpha434   Tits. Like Jake says, the easy thing will be dis...   Jan 18 2007, 06:29 PM
alpha434   Meanwhile. I'd want independent spark control ...   Jan 18 2007, 06:30 PM
brer   I've got that photo in my files Jake. Very im...   Jan 18 2007, 07:00 PM
Aaron Cox   dude.... next engine... twin plug :) thats just co...   Jan 18 2007, 09:06 PM
Jake Raby   The twin plugs WILL help a smaller bore engine, BU...   Jan 18 2007, 09:12 PM
brer   at that level the benefits are not worth the cos...   Jan 18 2007, 10:06 PM
ChrisNPDrider   Do you think a twin plug 1.7 with a heavy rotating...   Jan 18 2007, 10:03 PM
Jake Raby   Do you think a twin plug 1.7 with a heavy rotatin...   Jan 19 2007, 11:30 AM
brer   Do you think a twin plug 1.7 with a heavy rotati...   Jan 20 2007, 11:53 AM
DNHunt   Meanwhile. I'd want independent spark control...   Jan 19 2007, 07:36 AM
cnavarro   Just as with 911's, those guys pretty much don...   Jan 19 2007, 09:40 AM
alpha434   Hey, I know we've sort of gotten away from the...   Jan 19 2007, 11:41 AM
brer   the idea was to use an inductive trigger on each p...   Jan 19 2007, 12:02 PM
Mueller   the idea was to use an inductive trigger on each ...   Jan 19 2007, 12:34 PM
brer   what if both plugs were COP and triggered by the s...   Jan 19 2007, 12:58 PM
Mueller   what if both plugs were COP and triggered by the ...   Jan 19 2007, 02:00 PM
DNHunt   You could use EDIS to trigger COP but, it's no...   Jan 20 2007, 10:21 AM
alpha434   You could use EDIS to trigger COP but, it's n...   Jan 20 2007, 02:16 PM
brer   hasn't the idea of linking two edis 4 modules ...   Jan 20 2007, 02:50 PM
Aaron Cox   machining the fan to be an EDIS wheel is a killer ...   Jan 20 2007, 06:50 PM
Crazyhippy   Should look into doing DOHC instead of dual sparks...   Jan 20 2007, 06:56 PM
brer   Should look into doing DOHC instead of dual spark...   Jan 20 2007, 09:00 PM
Crazyhippy   I prefer Rotary Valves.... Linky Linky All it ta...   Jan 20 2007, 09:17 PM
brer   you win that round.   Jan 20 2007, 09:19 PM
Mueller   brer, I think I found a solution for firing the tw...   Jan 24 2007, 08:36 PM
Aaron Cox   brer, I think I found a solution for firing the t...   Jan 25 2007, 04:11 PM
McMark   Or wire up two sensors 180 degrees off and it...   Jan 24 2007, 09:09 PM
ClayPerrine   Or wire up two sensors 180 degrees off and it...   Jan 24 2007, 09:19 PM
Mueller   Or wire up two sensors 180 degrees off and it...   Jan 24 2007, 09:39 PM
East coaster   From the aircraft world: http://www.greatplainsas....   Jan 24 2007, 09:41 PM
racerbvd   Twin plug Type IVs aren't new, I have a 2.1 th...   Jan 24 2007, 10:12 PM
jd74914   Lets see some pics of that TIV Byron :D   Jan 24 2007, 10:34 PM
Brando   Oooooooh... $682 a pair? That almost makes i...   Jan 25 2007, 10:37 AM
mudfoot76   That almost makes it affordable. But I wonder wha...   Jan 25 2007, 12:46 PM
brer   That almost makes it affordable. But I wonder wh...   Jan 25 2007, 01:20 PM
Brando   That almost makes it affordable. But I wonder wh...   Jan 25 2007, 03:09 PM
Brando   Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve i...   Jan 28 2007, 01:44 AM
Aaron Cox   Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve ...   Jan 28 2007, 02:05 PM
brer   Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve...   Jan 28 2007, 09:57 PM
Twystd1   I am still trying to figure out why you want to us...   Jan 28 2007, 03:08 AM
Mueller   I am still trying to figure out why you want to u...   Jan 29 2007, 11:31 PM
DNHunt   There was a pretty good example of what can happen...   Jan 28 2007, 07:19 AM
Brando   Clayton, when you go with that electromotive setup...   Jan 28 2007, 01:50 PM
Jake Raby   We are now much closer to the Ignition shootout wi...   Jan 28 2007, 09:47 PM
Brando   :bump: let's keep this topic going. Lots of go...   Jan 29 2007, 09:04 PM
Air_Cooled_Nut   Looking at where the second set of plugs would nee...   Jan 29 2007, 10:34 PM
Jake Raby   It's very tight, but the lower plugs in my set...   Jan 29 2007, 11:00 PM
914fan   Did anybody notice that the heads on page 11 that ...   Jan 29 2007, 11:35 PM
Twystd1   As far as crank fire. There is NO WAY a dizzy can ...   Jan 30 2007, 12:59 AM
Jake Raby   Omitting the dizzy is the first step in making big...   Jan 30 2007, 01:48 AM
DNHunt   Clayton Cool info on the BMW 2002. I may be looki...   Jan 30 2007, 08:23 AM
brer   I spoke with Great Plains and their twin spark con...   Jan 30 2007, 10:38 AM
DNHunt   I'm a little out of my field of expertise but,...   Jan 30 2007, 10:49 AM
brer   I think you're right. I was curious as to ho...   Jan 30 2007, 10:58 AM
jd74914   Ford EDIS is from the 2.3turbos IIRC   Jan 30 2007, 11:02 AM
brer   what car and years?   Jan 30 2007, 11:07 AM
toon1   EDIS-4 90-93 4cyl models, this info came from the ...   Jan 30 2007, 01:14 PM
DNHunt   EDIS-4, 1990 to 1993 1.9L 4 cylinder engines. Ford...   Jan 30 2007, 01:43 PM
toon1   EDIS-4, 1990 to 1993 1.9L 4 cylinder engines. For...   Jan 30 2007, 01:57 PM
DNHunt   EDIS-4, 1990 to 1993 1.9L 4 cylinder engines. Fo...   Jan 30 2007, 02:56 PM
DNHunt   Here's the VR sensor on the back of the coolin...   Jan 30 2007, 02:58 PM
Aaron Cox   brer mentioned machining the fan to have tooths on...   Jan 30 2007, 04:42 PM
brer   brer mentioned machining the fan to have tooths o...   Jan 30 2007, 06:58 PM
toon1   Nice!!! I'm going to that when I ...   Jan 30 2007, 05:05 PM
toon1   How are you going to do it? A Milling machine? ...   Jan 31 2007, 09:29 AM
brer   My friend has a shop with CNC. its a snip to notch...   Jan 31 2007, 12:32 PM
Aaron Cox   what about orientation? doesnt it matter where th...   Jan 31 2007, 12:34 PM
brer   sensor position would need to be decided first, ba...   Jan 31 2007, 01:01 PM
Aaron Cox   sensor position would need to be decided first, b...   Jan 31 2007, 04:43 PM
brer   oh that is just brilliant! how would you v...   Jan 31 2007, 05:14 PM
brer   anyone have an ignition map for twin spark?? or wo...   Jan 31 2007, 04:37 PM
brer   dont ask me. I'm just thinking out loud. :beer...   Jan 31 2007, 04:48 PM
Aaron Cox   the toothed fan doesnt mean twin blug... you can u...   Jan 31 2007, 04:50 PM
brer   doesn't the gap have to be at a certain positi...   Jan 31 2007, 04:52 PM
Aaron Cox   i would expect you could index the gap to a certai...   Jan 31 2007, 04:55 PM
Aaron Cox   scratch that. i know how to google. http://www.me...   Jan 31 2007, 04:56 PM
2 Pages V  1 2 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic
26 User(s) are reading this topic (26 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th June 2024 - 11:03 AM