Subaru Fever, Choices, choices--2.5 or 2.0 T.... Options

[tgbo]

Okay, all you avid Subaru converts, my 914 1.8 is up on stands for rust removal and re-engining...I'm mostly a Fiat guy who has wanted a 914 for years and finally acquired a one owner from a friend who just gave up! Been searching the Suby threads ( wow, some nice work) and made the decision to go with more modern power--sooo, what I have gleaned is this: the 2.5 (ala Scott T., etc) will allow radiator in the engine room, the turbos won't--correct? (Fiid's pix show way more cutting than I want to have to do). The Suby ecu will work fine, with minor fiddling--Fiid, are you willing to share some MS knowledge from your conversion? (yes, I have studied the squirter and may put it on the Datsun, too).

That said, motor mounting--Scott's bar or something like the Downunder bar seems the way to go. Scott, have you decided to make copies for sale, or are you allowing reproduction by members for personal use?

Last question for today: engine vendors -- lots on Ebay, any recs on non-ebay vendors for JDM or NA motors ( and price ranges on recent buys if you don't mind)

Yes, pix will come as the work starts!

Thanks,
John

[Matt Monson]

Try:

www.superrupair.com They are a Subaru only shop her in Boulder that has many longblocks available. They have been around forever and I have purchased several used longblocks from them. Talk to Dave in used parts and tell him that I sent you.

Colorado Component Rebuilders. All they do is rebuilt Subaru longblocks. Nothing used. They work very closely with Kennedy and are experts at stripping harnesses and prepping them for installation in other vehicles. They are expensive, but you really are getting a remanufactured engine. Talk to Emily, and tell her I sent you.

Fineline Imports in Santa Rosa, CA. Talk to Miles. They get a lot of JDM EJ20's, and can sell you one with a LINK ECU, or without.

http://www.4subarusuzukikiaparts.com/ These guys are a Subaru salvage yard. Good prices and great reputation. They are near Sacto, CA

http://www.gr8wheels.com/jdmimporters.html JDM importers. All they do is STI and RA longblocks. Expensive, but if you want the best race engines, they are the place to get them

Nippon Motors in southern California. They get your basic JDM imported Ej22's, Ej25's and older Ej20's from '90-94 Legacy Turbos. I have bought multiple Honda and Subaru longblocks from them with never a problem.

I am partial to the NA EJ25's. Mine is 225hp, almost as much as a WRX, but I have way more torque and power under the curve. All it takes to get there from the factory 165hp is a set of Web Cams, and good intake and exhaust. Good used ones, complete with ECU and wiring harness can often be found on NASIOC from guys pulling them to do WRX swaps. Expect to pay around $1000...

[airsix]

I'm thinking about this conversion as well. Here are my thoughts on engine choice and vendor:
EJ25 vs. EJ20T - I have a 140-ish hp 914 and while it's a lot more fun than 80hp it's not enough for me. I would only go with the EJ20T because it's 240hp out of the box, and very simple to get out another 60-100hp when you get itchy.

Vendor - to me this comes down to what ECU will be used. Subaru ECU - use a domestic motor. Aftermarket ECU - Get a JDM motor for $650 from Nippon Motors. Everyone says the JDM motors are set up to run on higher octane (94? 96 maybe?) I haven't been able to find anyone who can tell me if that means there is a mechanical difference (ie. higher compression) or just a tuning difference (more ignition advance). Regardless, using an aftermarket ECU on a JDM motor should give the flexibility to make a JDM motor run fine on our fuel.

If I do this it will be a JDM EJ20T with aftermarket ECU (MS w/ wideband, or the MIC3 I'm already running)

-Ben M.

[TonyAKAVW]

When I first set out to do this conversion I was strongly considering using an EJ20T but after a lot of thinking, decided to go with an EJ25 naturally aspirated engine. I had several reasons for this including:

1. Radiator in the engine bay. No one has proven that an EJ20T won't work with a radiator in the engine bay, but then it does create probably 30% more heat than an EJ25, assuming similar efficiencies. I didn't really want to be the first to try it and I was really big on the idea of having my two trunks intact.

2. Power. While the 227 HP would be nice, and all, 170 is going to be more than twice the power of the engines I'm used to driving with in 914s that I've had. I figure that if I want more power later, I can always upgrade to a turbo motor and just do the radiator in the trunk. The hard work of making motor mounts, etc. etc. will mostly be done.

3. Complexity. The naturally aspirated engine is simple, has few components and fits very easily in the engine bay. The tubro motor has an intercooler, a turbo and considerably more plumbing. Fitting this into the engine bay is certainly doable, but it gets cramped pretty quickly.

4. Cost. I bought my EJ25 with 41,000 miles for $900. Its a domestic EJ25 with single overhead cam from a 2001 Impreza 2.5RS. It came with the ECU, almost the entire car's wiring harness (including the engine harness) and even a ricey blue air intake. A WRX motor with all its accesories will probably cost substantially more.

I too had concerns about the JDM motors. I actually drove over to Nippon motors and looked at the engines they had. They didn't have a ton of Subaru engines, and the ones I looked at seemed fairly old. I'm sure that thats not always the case though. For me, going with a USDM engine eliminated another layer of complexity in engine management that I _might_ have had to go through with a JDM engine. Doing a conversion was complex enough, having to tune the engine, etc., was just extra work that I didn't want to take on at this stage.

-Tony

[Matt Monson]

If there are any Subaru questions you guys have ever had and haven't had answered, ask away. I am one of the founding members of NASIOC and have been in this game for the last 6 years. I have done both USDM and JDM engine swaps, both with factory ECU's and piggyback units.

But a few things from the remarks above. There is no compression difference on a JDM engine. The differences are in ECU tuning. But the Subaru ECU's are smart. They will retard timing and run just fine on US gas. You just don't make the factory rated HP on them.

Not all Ej20's make 240hp. In fact, most of them don't. It really depends on year and model. Ej20's were first used in the early turbo Legacies. These engines are Ej20G's. They were 200hp for autos and 220hp for manuals. These engines have 8.5:1 CR. These are the only EJ20's Nippon ever gets. They look old because they are 15 years old. I have purchased two of these engines from them with no problems whatsoever. Just replace the timing belt, check the seals and hoses and you are good to go.

When the WRX was introduced in '93, they were 220hp for auto and 240 for manuals. When the STI was released in '95, it was 250hp. You are not going to find these at most of your average California import warehouses. Specialty importers are snatching up most of these engines. In '97 they redesigned the Ej20 and upped the hp. Autos went to 250 and manual to 280 and STi to 300. Good luck finding any of these as a complete swap for less than $2500. $4000+ is usually the case on the newer ones.

I could go one about hydraulic lash adjusters vs shim over bucket vs rocker heads, and open deck versus closed, what turbos were used on what year, max hp, and max boost,etc etc, but don't want to bury you with info that isn't desired...

[lapuwali]

Everyone I've talked to says the 2.0 turbos are torqueless. Nice top-end punch, but nada down below. Perhaps that's just a matter of tuning, but starting out with a 2.5 sounds like the ticket to me. Stock Soob exhausts are pretty far from optimal, and there's little reason a 4-valve 2.5L engine shouldn't be able to make a flexible 200hp in NA form.

Alfa was getting 200hp out of their 2.5 V6 20 years ago in streetable (but not US legal) trim. Their 3.0 4-valver ultimately made 240hp in full US emissions compliance mode, or 80hp/liter. A late 1.8 Miata made 140hp, or 78hp/liter. So, a 2.5 Soob engine should be tunable to 195-200hp NA while maintaining streetability, esp. since there are no smog considerations.

You can always get even more silly and add a turbo to the 2.5 if you decide 200hp isn't enough. Soob gets a smog-compliant 300hp out of the STi, and the turbo'd 2.5 has enough torque to drag a 4000lb Forester around at pretty silly speeds.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 26 2005, 09:44 AM)

...a bunch of stuff (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

anyone supercharge a suby motor? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[Always Looking]

Great discussion for those of us who dream of having the time to convert our teeners to modern power. Speaking of time, how many hours did you guys who have done the conversion have into 1) design 2) fabrication 3) installation 4) tuning? I figure I can pick your brains on design and tuning - and maybe call on the club to assist with fabrication and installation. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Maybe I can raise the $ by selling beer. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Looks like for the non turbo conversion, I'd be looking at $1500 - $2000? I'm guessing a good 100 hours.

[tgbo]

WoW!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif) Just the boost I needed to really get started on the project! Matt, great info, I'll be asking for more info after I get an engine--Tony, your thread is inspirational to this old retired guy--and I've got a garage to play in with out close neighbors. I'll upload pix of the car as is, and ask specific questions as they crop up. Looks like a tired 1.8 and a set of 2.0 heads coming to the classifieds soon....

First request: couple more pix of the metal removal in the engine bay, since it won't be needed anymore, and room is always nice. (think of how easy it was to climb in and work on an old F150)

Thanks and I'll bring the beer

John

[horizontally-opposed]

So it appears that Renegade Hybrids takes the stance that even the NA Subie motors won't run cool enough with the radiator in the engine bay -- or at least cool enough to fit their liking. Then again, they are located in Vegas...

That stinks, because the idea of a self contained motor compartment that preserves the original concept of the car AND avoid cutting up the front trunk is highly appealing...so what are the temps for the self-contained cars?

Thoughts? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

For those of us without the time, skill, or garage to do a swap, one wonders how expensive the Subie swap would get. I suspect $2500 is a pipe dream for all but those who have the space and time to spend doing everything themselves. Probably more like $5000-7000 for the rest of us...and now you're getting into RAT money and options to keep a motor that does a much better job of staying true to the 914's specs.

Never mind this latter angle, it's just my own personal take -- I know there are a million reasons to do an SBC, EJ20, or whatever else -- just as we're all unique.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 26 2005, 09:47 AM)

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 26 2005, 09:44 AM) ...a bunch of stuff (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) anyone supercharge a suby motor? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

Yes,
It was done years ago by a guy named Rimmer, here in Colorado. He never worked out the bugs and didn't get it into full production. It was done with an Eaton Roots blower. He is rumoured to be playing at it again with vortech centrifugal units.

I've also got a friend who made his own from a roots blower off of a kompressor MBZ intake. He's blown up 4 motors in the process, but he can run 8psi and about 220chp on an Ej22e with it. For all the time and trouble, you can get an EJ25 there without a blower on it.

And speaking of that, it was mentioned earlier about bolting a turbo onto an Ej25. Not a good idea. They crack pistons and lose rods at most anything above 5-7psi. The EJ25 turbo engines run much lower compression and signiicantly different internals than the NA variants. If one is going turbo, they should start with a turbo block to start with...

[soloracer]

If you want to stay normally aspirated but want more than 200 hp you could always look at getting the EG33 out of the Subaru SVX. It's a flat six making 230 hp stock that is supposed to be bullet proof. Kennedy Engineering makes a transmission adapter for it. I almost went this way myself but chose another route because I wanted more power and there wasn't a lot of aftermarket support for the EG33.

[TonyAKAVW]

QUOTE

So it appears that Renegade Hybrids takes the stance that even the NA Subie motors won't run cool enough with the radiator in the engine bay -- or at least cool enough to fit their liking. Then again, they are located in Vegas...

I suspect they also make a lot of money off of their front trunk radiator kit....

QUOTE

For those of us without the time, skill, or garage to do a swap, one wonders how expensive the Subie swap would get. I suspect $2500 is a pipe dream for all but those who have the space and time to spend doing everything themselves. Probably more like $5000-7000 for the rest of us...and now you're getting into RAT money and options to keep a motor that does a much better job of staying true to the 914's specs.

Any engine swap is a major undertaking. Even if you buy a kit, you still need the space to put things together, and keep the car while its being worked on. My fabrication tools are very limited. Just last night I finished cutting steel tubing for my engine support bar, with a hacksaw. It took a total of three evenings to make measurements, make a mockup, and cut the final piece. I took it to a welding shop not 30 minutes ago and was quoted $40 for that plus some other welding. The engine bar is probably the toughest thing to make for all of this, aside from the oil pan which you can actually buy modified already. Materials cost was about $15-$20 in steel.

I'm not trying to say that this is the right conversion for everyone, but it isn't as hard as it might seem, and with several of us doing (or completed) conversions now, there will be a ton of documentation on what to do, lessons learned, etc.

QUOTE

Tony, your thread is inspirational to this old retired guy

THANKS! That was my exact hope with that thread, was to get other people to do the same. Scott really pioneered all this stuff, and I'm doing a lot of things similarly, but with my own style. I think everyone has their own style of doing things and its fun to see them.

-Tony

[scotty914]

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 26 2005, 02:31 PM)

So it appears that Renegade Hybrids takes the stance that even the NA Subie motors won't run cool enough with the radiator in the engine bay -- or at least cool enough to fit their liking. Then again, they are located in Vegas...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)

nope wont work, cant put the radiator in the engine bay on a 2.5 NA, lets see i have 10 k miles on mine, drove it thru death valley at 5 mph for 2 hours, drove it around vegas for a day,drove it cross country, drove it in stop and go traffic in 100 + degrees here at home... nope wont work.

and i could do another conversion in 40 hours including fab work. and yes i would sell engine bars iff people wanted, heck i sort of have a kit with instructions and the radiator frame for 500, might sound pricey but its 1000 cheaper the RH, but they are giving you a clutch and engine bar for 2000

[ArtechnikA]

i have the plain vanilla EJ25D in my plain vanilla autotrans '97 Outback. the transmission ratios are VERY well suited to the power band of the engine and the 3000-lb vehicle has surprisingly good performance. if more is available with cams, intake, and exhaust that's nice to know but i'm disinclined to tinker further just now - i *need* this car to get me through the winter!

at "some" point - but surely around 200HP - even air-cooled 914's need -some- kind of front-mounted cooler if they're going to be driven hard (and why else would you have 200HP?). so once you're in that power neighborhood, you're in for some plumbing, whether it's an oil cooler for a 6 or water lines for a radiator.

[Matt Monson]

Yeah,
But the difference between oil cooler lines and radiator lines for most people comes down to cutting and keeping the car so it can be returned to stock. When I was thinking about doing an EJ swap in my 914, I came up with the idea to use a smaller than stock radiator in the engine bay, and run some lines and use an oil cooler up front like a GT to give me added cooling...

[Brett W]

Whats with all the objections to a front mount radiator? It will work great and if designed right I think you could do it without losing a bunch of your trunk space. Look at the radiators that Honda, Nissan, and Toyota use on their cars. Very thin, not too big. The halfwidth radiator from a Civic would work great in this application. Use aluminum tubing along the underside of the car to get water up to a front mounted radiator, you should be golden. There are a bunch of Civic turbo cars running just fine on this small radiator. A 2.5 NA motor would be fine with this setup. Maybe even take the stock Suby radiator and intergrate it some how.

If you cut the car up remove the piece in a nice clean fashion and then save it to put in later. I really think once you build a clean well designed Suby conversion you won't waste your time going back to an aircooled anything.

[horizontally-opposed]

QUOTE (scott thacher @ Oct 26 2005, 12:47 PM)

[/QUOTE] (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif) nope wont work, cant put the radiator in the engine bay on a 2.5 NA, lets see i have 10 k miles on mine, drove it thru death valley at 5 mph for 2 hours, drove it around vegas for a day,drove it cross country, drove it in stop and go traffic in 100 + degrees here at home... nope wont work.

This is exactly the feedback I was looking for -- and probably missed in a previous post on this subject. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

As soon as RH mentioned that the radiator in the engine compartment was not keeping things cool enough "for their liking," I remembered scanning posts a long while back about how 914clubbers running these engines said it was fine. It appears that it is. And I think NOT losing the 914's trunk, spare tires, and originality is the way to go.

All in all, this is perhaps the coolest engine conversion yet for those who aren't seeking huge hp.

So yes... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) This thread IS very inspiring!!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[fiid]

I'll share anything I know about the Megasquirt - what are you interested in - or are you just after a general write-up (it may take a while).

I would got with the EJ25. The turbo is cool, but I think it would be hard to make it fit without cutting some. The EJ25 with a rotated intake manifold is relatively easy and a bit more simple to get going. With that engine, no cats, and a K&N, you are probably making almost 200HP anyways - I used to have one in an Impreza and it wasn't slow, and that is with stock pipes. With an equal length header, you'll be flying.

As for the lack of torque - people said the same thing about the 180HP Celica engine. When you put it in an elise it wasn't a problem. From my limited experience so far - I don't think the EJ20 is insufficient for the 914. Although the EJ25 does have more torque.

[effutuo101]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) This thread is very positive. What motor/tranny combo would provide the most potential for HP (other than WRX motor) and has the highest amount of aftermarket support. I plan on doing my conversion early next year and want to start getting parts in December. I would love to have all of the aftermarket goodies and a turbo. I have no issues cutting up the front trunk, but would also want to put in a fuel cell.
In short, what is the best turbo motor to start with (pros and cons) for about 2-3K$? I am ok with buying a long block and using aftermarket stuff till after I get it running. I am looking at the possibility of using a palmtop to manage the motor.
As our cars weigh about that of a new Z06 I want the car to be quick with a crusing rpm of 2500-3500 at 80.