914 Water pump, Yes a SBC Options

[drive-ability]

I'm replacing my Renegade/Chrysler BB pump, since it locked up last night. I didn't here any noise at all ? The engine does make a bit of noise but you would think there would be some warning. Nope ! Maybe something broke off and jammed up the impeller etc. The pump just locked up and melted the drive belt.
My question is I have been running a standard pump and decided to get a high volume unit. My assumption is the quality is better than my last one and with A/C it might perform better moving more water. I guess with more pressure comes it own set of issues. One thought is the belt was too tight, and that's a good bet.
I'm not running a Thermostat but am running a minor restriction in the thermostat housing, which I think I should remove.. ?

Any one have any input here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[Bruce Hinds]

I had some of the same issues, and found that there is something called a High flow thermostat. Even though Hi Flow is not neccessarily what we need. There are some holes around the thermostat diaphram that allow coolant to flow slowly when closed and a higher volume when open. With the radiator so far away it helps to keep the coolant flowing for better cooling than if the coolant has to start and stop. It seems without the thermostat the stuff flows through the radiator too fast and it doesn't have a chance to cool down. I'm not sure why it flow so fast with out the restriction, it may by the MOPAR pump I got with my renegade kit. It's and easy solution and I bet you'll see a big difference.
Let me know how it works.
B

[JRust]

Are you going with another belt driven water pump? Meziere make a great electric pump. Taking the belt off the pump is easier on your motor. Yes it takes a little more juice from your electrical system. Most v8 conversions have a good enough alternator that isn't a problem. More horsepowere is always a good things too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . I am doing this on my buick 215 v8. Although the major reason is my water pump comes into the cab to much

[drive-ability]

people talk about the speed the water goes through the radiator and how it might be a factor, who knows its sounds reasonable to me, but I am running a double pass radiator and that may effect the concept.?? I did run a thermostat but you need a good bypass system or as I did BEND all the impeller blades flat if you don't wait to rev the engine.... LOL
I did look at a electric pump and passed because I have more trust in the belt driven units. Having said that I am replacing a failed one at this time LOL. I would go there if I was running a 215 just for the reason stated.

This might be a good time to set up a by-pass system. I have seen some pictures but don't have a real good Idea yet.. I'll let you know how the higher volume pump works...

[dakotaewing]

In regard to electric water pumps, it appears that Davies Craig actually makes the the best, most controlable unit out there...
It pumps about 115l per minute/ made in AUS -

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_pro...;action=product
This is what I am planning on using in my car -

[drive-ability]

I have seen that electric pump and do like the overall setup, I would need to see it work with this application first.. I just wonder if the distance equals weight or drag on the pumps motor, and since I drive my car allot its concerns me. I would love to here how things work for you!

I removed my pump and the vanes are trashed, bent and broken off ! This unit has been in there for 2 or 3 years. My guess and its a guess at this point for sure is the blades (stamped not cast ) slowly bent back until they hit the housing. Surely a other thing could be there's a greater restriction in flow somewhere. At this point I don't know...

[SLITS]

The speed of flow thru the radiator greatly effects cooling. To fast ... no cooling; to slow overheating. There is an optimum flow rate, hence the use of blanking sleeves, thermostats, plates with holes drilled in them, etc.

In your other thread on the subject, I gave you the opinion of a man with 35 years experience diagnosing/rebuilding water pumps as to what went wrong with the pump.

[burton73]

I went over this with Rod Simpson at his shop the other day. I wanted to go to an electric water pump on my V8 car I am building and he had a few things to say. One thing was Renegade copied his design on there water pump and Rod took the main part from a design from an older Chrysler unit that had the widest bearings. These units Rod says live for 70,000 miles on his customers cars.

I know of Simpson conversions because I had one car that was a combo of Kennedy and his parts. This was over 30 years ago. There are a number of ways to do these V8 conversions. His house shop is very close to my home.

On the electric pump, he said that an electric pump couldn’t put out a strong enough pump to pump the water that far with out burning out. It is to far to the front of the car and then back to the engine. He said the electric pumps are designed for front engine cars and front mounted radiators. He said it would take to much HP to pump that amount of backpressure. At least I found this out before I got that far. He said the pumps made do not have that amount of power and only a mechanical pump will work.

Bob

[drive-ability]

The speed of flow thru the radiator greatly effects cooling. To fast ... no cooling; to slow overheating. There is an optimum flow rate, hence the use of blanking sleeves, thermostats, plates with holes drilled in them, etc.

In your other thread on the subject, I gave you the opinion of a man with 35 years experience diagnosing/rebuilding water pumps as to what went wrong with the pump.

Hey SLITS I didn't mean to say flow wasn't a major factor, but it may have looked that way. I discounted it because I don't have a cooling issue to date.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I looked back and didn't find what you referenced above, could you fill me in.


I know people run electric pumps and seem to like them but most V8 guys use there cars as weekend drivers. Short runs here and there mostly, I on the other hand will drive my car long distances sometimes 1,000 miles one way. This is where I think the electric pumps might be pushed to failure.

[charliew]

It's sorta like when you use a paint spray gun on a 50 ft air hose, you gotta crank the pressure up to about 80 psi to get the gun to atomize the paint like it would with a 20 ft hose. The other option is to use bigger water lines so the restriction is less and that would reduce the effort at the pump. try it without a thermostat and if the water is moving too fast start using a restrictor till it cools. Then you will know whether or not you can use a thermostat. If the thermostat was closed or had too much restriction a stamped impeller would probably bend at high rpm.

I have a 63 jeep j200 truck with a sbc. When I was trying to get it to run cooler I tried a flowcooler waterpump and eventually blew the tank off the radiator. The flowcooler waterpump basically has a plate on the back side of the impeller to move more water through the pump.

[andys]

Meziere makes a real nice looking mechanical (belt driven) pump should you be apprehensive with using the electric one. Available from Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Ty...iere&page=2

Andys

[computers4kids]

TC just lost his Renegade "chrysler" pump the same way last month...the vanes were toast. I sure would like to better understand this all a bit better...perhaps avoid the the same end with mine. I'll be looking forward to reading more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[drive-ability]

I just got my new pump from Edelbrock, well it wont fit. I guess the High output pumps are a little bigger. The impeller circumference is larger and likely the depth is as well. I think the stamped units stress over time, bend and blow up !!! I'm going to look for a unit which has a cast impeller. P.S the Edelbrock impeller was a cast unit... Hummmmm.

[SLITS]

I don't remember when you started the last thread. You posted images of the water pump. I'll ask if he remembers the image I showed him. I do remember the discussion centered around cavitation.

I can also see if we have the Chrysler pumps as a core or if we have any rebuilt. I can get them rebuilt if necessary. I don't remember asking about vanes as to whether they came in cast iron. I do remember that they are big bearing / small bearing pumps. I had also posted the engine size and years that they were used on.

I'll give it a shot.

[computers4kids]

The gasket should be a Fel-Pro 11730

Jerry

If I remember correctly the gasket you need is off of a 70's big block V-8 Chrysler water pump. That should at least get you close.

Maybe this will help a bit running the pump down.

[SLITS]

Here are your answers:

1.) the image I showed him he agreed that the impeller came apart, but the cibearing did not fail.

2.) The pump used is a Lester 1352, small bearing, A/C pump, with 6 fins. In the manufacture of the impeller, there is a small round hole at the base of the impeller that is a weak point. This pump was used on 1961 - 1964 Chrysler 361 CID engines, the 1959 - '1971 383 CID engines, 1963 - 1964 426 CID engines and 1966 - 1971 440 CID engines. Impeller diameter is 3.500". This unit moves water faster, but with less volume.

3.) The alternate pump is a Lester 1317. It was used on NON-A/C vehicles. It has an 8 fin impeller. Same engine, same years, but NON-A/C vehicles. It moves water slower, but a higher volume. Diameter of the impeller is 4.185".

4.) The next series came due to the use of the engines in Motor Homes and they would overheat on climbing hills. This is the Lester 1519. It featured an 8 fin impeller with the big bearing housing. Generally fitted to the '74 - '78 400 / 440 CID engines. Slow water / high volume. This one may be the one Edelbrock copied.

Below are images of the 1352 with CAST IRON impeller ... they do exist.

(IMG:http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff312/professor914/chry1.jpg)

(IMG:http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff312/professor914/chry.jpg)

I can obtain and supply these pumps if you so desire.

Good luck!

[Bruce Hinds]

Thanks for the Interesting thread on the water pump situation. I remember replacing my pmup years ago, other things had grounded the car, but since I'd gotten it going in it's second life, there were cooling issues.
Hopefully I'll get this thing resurected again for it's 3rd life and I'll double check the pump to see if I got one of the wrong ones.
I'd long thought about going with an electric pump and would be curious to know if anyother renegades have done that.
B

[SLITS]

Renegade tried an electric pump on at least one 914 conversion that I know of. The electrics were hell to figure out due to the harness they were using. I believe they finally figured it out. I do believe this was their first attempt at an electric one. Better information should come from them.

Years ago I remember an SCCA racer than burned up an engine 'cause he forgot to flip the switch for the pump. Whether that makes a mechanically driven one better or not is up to the individual.

Oh, and Renegade confirmed that the motor home pump / Edelbrock pump will not fit the housing.

[charliew]

While you are studying you might look at the reason chev went to reverse flow cooling. That seems to be easy on the 914 application. I must have tried 6 different crank to waterpump pulleys to try and improve cooling on the jeep. With ac and the small grill opening on the early gladiator it was hard to get better than 210-220-230 on a 100 degree day with the ac on.

[burton73]

I would look to the quality of the machine work of the casting of the water pump body. I just spoke to Rod Simpson on this and said he has had only one pump come back in over 30 years after a guy ran his car without water. If the machining is too close the impeller will get too hot and it can bend and jam up. If is to far away it will not pump right because the clearances are wrong.

In Orange County the thermostat should make no difference in this happening.

I never had this problem with my V8 before 30 years ago

Bob