Let's talk about coil pack ignition, a grassroots CSOB build? Options

[ahdoman]

Here's the deal; I started a thread over on the PP / 911 site on possibly using coil pack ignition instead of the traditional distributor and wires. In keeping with the 911 wine and cheese tradition it's gone high dollar, twin plug, race motor setups. (I should have known better than to try to get "shade tree mechanic" info from the "executive" class).

So, here's where I am so far and I'm hoping some of you can fill in the info here. Since most of you are on a budget like me I thought I'd get some more realistic answers over here.

There are several manufacturers of coils that fit on the top of the plugs (Audi, VW, Kawasaki, Denso, etc.). These are really cool because they also fit down into the sheet metal of the 4's but in my case the valve covers and headsof the /6. It also means the elimination of plug wires and puts a nice strong spark right at the plug. What I am trying to understand is the other parts that are needed to complete a system. I know there are some good manufacturers of pre-fabed solutions out there but they are $$$$$$$$$$ and still require plug wires to be run from a central coil pack location.

Here's a couple of questions;

1) I realize that the individual coil packs will need to be triggered. What are the options to doing this and how are they wired?
2) What kind of a "brain" needs to be involved with a system like this? What does it need to do?

Here's an example of the type of coil pack I'm looking at...



And here's an example installed...



See how neat that is? I realize wires will still need to be run but they can be much smaller since they no longer need to carry the voltage from the coil.

[underthetire]

Look up the diyautotune site. Even if you don't use the magasquirt for fuel, i think it wil drive coil packs. just need a crank sensor.

[Mark Henry]

Already told you that at PP.....

There are a few different systems on the market, cheapest by far is MS but you would need to do some reading. It's just a trigger.

[Mark Henry]

One thing you might want to do search on: how to test a coil on spark.

My choice, if I do this, will be the GM wasted spark coils like on my SDS, piece of wire and I can test on the side of the road if needed.
Yes you still have to run plug wires, but you have to run 3 wires to this set-up as well

[904svo]

They are the vw coil packs, I'm using them on my engine, type4 in wasted spark mode using Mega squirt as the controller. I'm also using a 36-1 tooth wheel with
a Hall sensor pick up not a VR sensor. This system work fine on my system and
I am happy with it.

[ahdoman]

Mark - You're info on the PP site has been the best and I appreciate you're reply. The problem I'm running into (and I've been told this by a couple of manufacturers) and where the disconnect lies is mainly with the controller. Apparantly a wasted spark system can't deal with triggering 6 coils. Everything that I have found that is reasonable ($) is wasted spark. I understand the need for something to trigger the spark (most likely a sensor wheel on the crank) it's finding the module that can deliver that to 6 seperate coils.

904SVO - What Megasquirt module are you using? Is it also controlling your FI?

[Solo914]

A guy in my area has taken the MS idea and ran with it. It is an awesome system from what I hear.

http://autosportlabs.com/

http://www.autosportlabs.com/megajolt-lite-p-41.html

Tell him Kyle Freiheit sent ya (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


EDIT: found this too http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?t=2175

[Mark Henry]

I sold a SDS system (I don't anymore) set up with twin coil packs for a faux 930 turbo race car.
I assure you it can be done all in the MS wiring/electronics.

Wasted spark is like arguing about batch/sequential injection, if you had never heard of the 2 terms it would never matter, unless your a green freak tooling around the city at 30mph.

[ClayPerrine]

I actually ran a GM waste spark ignition on a 2.0L motor for a while. It works great even without an ECU to advance the spark, as the default advance curve is really close to the advance curve of an 050 distributor.

I eventually hooked it to a GM Fuel injection computer, and it worked great too. But the whole system died when I had a starter stick and chew up the flywheel that I used for a trigger wheel.

You could do exactly the same thing using a 6 cylinder ignition module for a GM car. It would be cheap, as there are a LOT of them in wrecking yards. But if I were going to do it again, I would use a trigger wheel on the pulley end of the crank rather than modding the flywheel.

[Mark Henry]

The ford EDIS is what MS is based on. Not quite as powerful as the GM they do run at 10*BTDC static right out of the box and this can be used as a limp-home mode . The MS just tweeks the curve/advance.

Yarko M. (flatspin911) a local 911 racer guy is running a twin plug MS ford fired twinplug this coming year. He's on the fence to set the crankfire up on the webers because he also has a set of PMO TB's sitting on the bench.
Ford coils are batch.

[SirAndy]

I would use a trigger wheel on the pulley end of the crank

We had one of those disintegrate at redline on the 911 racecar.

It's amazing how much carnage such a small part will leave behind if you spin it fast enough right before takeoff ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Andy

[ahdoman]

Kyle - Good info thanks. I put a call into them.

Andy - I'm thinking about using a "damaged" distributor I have to somehow make a triggering system. I just need to learn more about what the control module needs to see. Either that or modify a stock pulley for a ring.

It looks like the Ford EDIS-6 is the way to go.

[Mark Henry]

I would use a trigger wheel on the pulley end of the crank

We had one of those disintegrate at redline on the 911 racecar.

It's amazing how much carnage such a small part will leave behind if you spin it fast enough right before takeoff ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Andy

Trigger mount's and wheels should always be built to the point of over-kill. If you're using one of the heavy steel EDIS wheels welded or bolted to your pulley and you have a high RPM /6 you should get that pulley balanced as well.

Mounting the trigger on your dizzy and you'll still have all the slop of a stock dizzy.

[SirAndy]

Trigger mount's and wheels should always be built to the point of over-kill. If you're using one of the heavy steel EDIS wheels welded or bolted to your pulley and you have a high RPM /6 you should get that pulley balanced as well.

It was all that. This car is built to win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

From the looks of the remaining pieces i suspect metal fatigue. The replacement piece (Same type, same vendor) has worked flawlessly so far.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Andy

[turboman808]

I got this planned down the road. 2 years more then likely. bigger motor twin plug and aem with coil packs.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)



This is probably off topic but a friend is currently converting his supra to run E85. Said he can run more boost without detonation. I'm not to familiar with this but wouldn't that mean you could also run something like 12-1 compression or more on a twin plug motor without worry?

[edwin]

i know you want the simplicity of running coil on plug but have you looked at the GM LS1 coils? built in ignitors and are what most people use for aftermarket ignition and they are pretty cheap. the leads they run on the factory LS1 are only 150mm ish anyway.
a few of my friends are doing jap performance stuff and ditch the factory coil packs cause apparently the heat from the engine kills them so they run the LS1 coils with leads.
as far as triggering i am going to use a nissan optical cam angle sensor out of a silvia sr20det (4cyl type 4) but the skyline sensors should be workable for you. benifit is the sequential ignition which who knows what benifit it will really give you. the optical sensors are imune to interferance unlike some hall and vr sensors.
i will be using a Haltech sprint 500 computer at this stage which will do full sequential injection and ignition but will easy do wasted spark for 6cyl.
hope i have been some help
Edwin

[904svo]

Mark - You're info on the PP site has been the best and I appreciate you're reply. The problem I'm running into (and I've been told this by a couple of manufacturers) and where the disconnect lies is mainly with the controller. Apparantly a wasted spark system can't deal with triggering 6 coils. Everything that I have found that is reasonable ($) is wasted spark. I understand the need for something to trigger the spark (most likely a sensor wheel on the crank) it's finding the module that can deliver that to 6 seperate coils.

904SVO - What Megasquirt module are you using? Is it also controlling your FI?

I'm using MS1 extra and it is also controlling my FI. MS1 extra can fire up to
12 cylinders in wasted mode ( 6 drivers needed). You don't need a ford EDIS
module either.

[Mark Henry]

Yep you don't need a ford EDIS, just that was what was on the shelf when the MS guys added the ignition, so t's the simplest system to add to MS.

And yes you can add ignition to MS1, but if your new and want ignition may as well get the MSII. If you have a long term project I'd wait, as I believe MSIII is in beta.

If you only want ignition only then megajolt would do the trick.

[jmill]

This is probably off topic but a friend is currently converting his supra to run E85. Said he can run more boost without detonation. I'm not to familiar with this but wouldn't that mean you could also run something like 12-1 compression or more on a twin plug motor without worry?

You can run higher compression without detonation with E85. It's like 105 octane. Getting rid of the heat is another story.

[charliew]

What little I know about this is: e85 runs cooler but it takes more of it not just a little more, so the fuel supply will need to be addressed. Yes it will reduce the possibility of det but will you always be able to find e85? I am not sure but maybe there could be two fuel maps if the ms can be reflashed easily at the service station when e85 is not available. The nasioc guys seem to like it's benefits over aquamist applications for reducing det. The possibility of loosing the failsafe of the aquamist versus the e85 mods is the question I study. The stuff I read is mostly about turbo cars and not ac motors.

The experience I've had with optical devices in business machines was that trash can be a problem where hall devices will work in a dirty enviorment.

The idea of having one coil per plug is the ability of the coil to reinergize so much easier and putting it ontop of the plug eliminates the wire and connection probs between a coil through a dist to a plug. The heat of the ac motor on the coil might be a question.The problem with a dist is the spark scatter from the shaft and advance weights and point bounce and tolerance wear. If the signal is on the end of the crank it is much more precise.