Could a 914 Redux come about? ...& do you like it?, ...now that VW owns controlling interest in Porsche? Options

[agentblr]

The 4 zilinder entry model is coming. Look no further than the 86-88 924S. The 944/951 become bloated and expensive and Porsche knew they were losing market share. Funny because the current economy is mirroring that time period today. I doubt we will see an H4...probably a federlized version of the Audi S3 260hp 2.0T motor.

[johannes]

In answer to the original question: No. Porsche does not need it, nor do they want it. They want to keep their Boxster as the base/entry level model, because it is nicely profitable for them. They don't want to steal sales from that line with a new line that they would have to invest (probably) billions in, only to have lower profit margins.

We are unlikely to see anything truly 914-like from VW either, as pure sports cars are not their thing. It is possible that Audi might be able to market such a car, but not that likely because they are about "luxury" more than performance.

I think the Elise is about as close to a 914 as we'll see for a long time to come...

--DD

Totally agree with you. They don't need it and they don't want it. And they don't know how to be competitive on that entry level segment. For now ! ...
They could change their mind and strategy if a drastic change occured on the car market and oil price ... And that is not an option to exclude.

[jonferns]

Regarding the above Mk-2 pics...

Who in their right mind would plumb an intercooler all the way up to the front of the nose???

-Josh2

That's a photoshop job, very skilled at that.

[zymurgist]

1) NO trunk. That's right, there was a storage compartment in the front of the car that was about the size of a case of beer. And then a space behind the seat large enough for a gym bag or a brief case. - this - was a huge shortcoming for the car, probably the worst.

True... one of the greatest things about the 914 is the phenomenal amount of storage space available. I still managed to fill both trunks and had to have help opening the front trunk when I arrived at the ECC and again when I got home last year, though. (Guess I don't travel light.)

[Tom_T]

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars.

Right. But that's not my point. The cars you mentioned may be 'no frills' by todays standard. Not so much when they were new.

But my point has nothing to do with that; it's COST I'm talking about. A new 914-6 was priced uncomfortably close to a 911. It was never (1970's pricing) a $2500.00 car. In fact, all the other models you mentioned were also pricey in their day.

What I am saying is Porsche is not about to change their tune and make a $30k car, or going back to 1970, a $1,850.00 914-6.

They are making it now. It's called a Cayman. If that thing had come with a targa top, and the Boxster hadn't come at all, every auto journalist in the world would have gone, 'Huh, Porsche made a new 914-6.'

Mike - Cayman is waaaay too expensive for the market segment which Porsche needs to captue early & young. How many 20-somethings & early 30's buyers do you know who can pop for a $60-80k +/- Cayman/Boxster today!!?? I'd venture to say not many, but easily a heck of a lot for $30-60k +/- IMHO.

And I'm not speaking relative "frills vs. no frills" then & today, as relativism doesn't always work as a justification in product design - even though the marketing gurus will try to "sell" folks that way! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm saying to go back to a more basic fun sports car as an option in the PAG line-up. Porsche has done that with almost every generation: 356 Speedster, 912/912E & the 914, 928/944/968, Boxster & now Boxster Speedster, & who knows what next!!??

Moreover, the 356 & 911/912/930 series of that 60's-80's era were hand built sports cars, whereas all Porsches are ALL assembly line built today - as the 914/4 & 928/944/968 were in their day.

Even the first base Boxster started initially in the price-point range we're talking about here for a 6 at $40-50k+/- ~ but as with the 911/912 & 924/944/968 series ~ price creep comes in & now you have $61k for the "new stripped down 2800 lb. Speedster" - up to almost $100k for the loaded BoxsterS/CaymanS ~ just where the 911 series was just a few years ago! Top half of 5-figures is a non-starter for most young professionals etc. wanting to enter the market with a Porsche as their "first dream car."

So Porsche has again "lost" that crucial initial entry Porsche buyer $30-$60k window, and salaries are frozen or dropping in this economy - NOT ever rising. Every maker needs to keep those new buyers coming in the door, in order to build brand loyalty early on, and used Porsches just won't cut it in that market segment for most of the masses.

Let's face it - we're ALL borderline insane on 914world with our inane 914 Luv! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .... but most everyday buyers aren't like us, & they want a DD Porsche that they can afford & depend upon running without much fussing, and the younger & more frugal ones want it in the mid-5-figure price range!

I do understand where you're coming from on the cost premise, but have a different take on it. First - you're comparing 914-6 with a Retro-914-4 price range of $30-40k, whereas more likely the hot 4-turbo &/or 6 would be in the next bracket(s) of $40-50k & $50-60k respectively.

The problem was that Porsche tried to semi-hand build the 914-6 like the 911's of the day, when they really needed a mass production price to keep the price under the hand built 911T especially, as well as for more differentiation of what you get for the money of 914-6 vs. 911T. Clearly less than 10% didn't give an appropriate spread, & that was wiped out after you added some options to the 914-6 price.

And on that topic, marketing-wise they "screwed the pooch" by marketing it as some blend of VW-Porsche, rather than as they did here in the USA as just a Porsche! I'd venture to say that - had Porsche sent 6 drive-trains to Karmann for assembly line builds of both 4s & 6s at a cost savings - but marketed it as a "pure Porsche" (albeit with VW components & assembly assistance) - that it MAY NOT have had the identity crisis in the market, & would definitely had a better price difference between the 911s. Of course without Mr. Peabody's time machine, we'll never know for sure! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Also, from an econometric analysis perspective - you have to take out of your comparison above - the Dollar vs. Mark exchange rate gyrations of the 1970's - resulting from before they took the currencies off the gold standard & the wild fluctuations afterward while the currency markets settled; as well as the 70's 1st & 2nd Oil Crisis induced inflation (just as the recent one in `08 jacked up all prices - not just fuel costs).

Additionally, new materials & production methods today mitigate some of the manufacturing costs of cars today - so it's not a straight line doubling of costs per decade sort of regression calculation. It would be a better analysis to look at the new Boxster Speedster at $61k ~ & analyze where costs would be saved by further cuts, a smaller & lighter platform (body & chassis), & a smaller displacement high-output motor(s).

The question is really whether Porsche could build a 2/3's scale Boxster - as in the sketch for $30-40k in a basic sporty 4 banger, & $40-60K for increased output power plants, hybrids, EVs, etc., & still attract enough buyers in that price-point range worldwide (40-60% in the US), to make back their investment & a respectable profit margin - but NOT a high end Porsche profit margin.

BMW, Jag, etc. have all got lower margin cars to capture these buyers early - not just to make huge profits now - but also to build a pipeline of future move-up buyers who will pop for the $100+k & ever growing Boxster/Cayman bill, & then will pay more for 911 series cars over the years - IF they keep them satisfied as customers. The name of that game is brand loyalty, as Toyota is struggling with now. BTW - it took Audi a decade to recover from their similar mishandling of their version of the runaway acceleration problem in the 70's-80's.

VW sees that entry buyer capture problem, and the product differentiation between a VW sports sedan, an Audi TT/etc., & a range of Porsche products - vs. their top-top end Bentley & Bugatti top of the pyramid niche products which have absolutely no entry strategy for their exclusive limited production products. So you're absolutely right on them not doing a VW nor an Audi 914-Redux, but I think (& hope) that the jury is still out for one in the offing from Porsche.

And please do keep in mind that we're just having a discussion here, and I'm not trying to disparage you nor anyone else in any way for differing opinions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Tom_T]

Another big problem with all cars today is the ever increasing safety/crash protection, emissions, dumb-proofing, etc. requirements of the US DOT & their EU & other counterparts, all of which adds weight (even over the 69-76 914 MYs).

Add that to AC, power windows, mirrors & seats, super audio systems power assist to steering & brakes, seat fanny warmers, & other luxury items - then you have a significant weight gain ...

... which drives engineering to add yet more structural weight to carry it & keep it from throwing the car all over the place around corners/etc.!

Pretty soon they'll make them put in 360 degree airbags so we'll all look like "Bubble Boy" from that movie! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Katmanken]

It's marketing crap creep that ruins sportcars.

I shudder when I think of the sleek Datsun 240Z that turned into the bloated 300ZX. Complete with a frickin useless easily confused digital compass.

I'm not holding my breath for a 914 replacement. It's all about manipulation of the public by the release of press packages from time to time. The purpose to the sales and marketeers is to throw their "brands" in front of the public and to genrerate a little "excitement" for thier "brands".

Nothing to do with cars, all about 'branding".

[SirAndy]

Could a 914 Redux come about?

No

[MDG]

As far as VWs plans, who knows. My opinion is the current GTI and Scirocco satisfies their sporty car desires. Both models blend in as part of the overall line-up and their styling draws the 20-30 year olds as well as the ricer crowd.

With Porsche, the Boxster Spyder you call up is a perfect case in point for their mindset. To create a more 'basic, fun sports car' as you put it, they took a Boxster S, stripped it of all the modern conveniences they could get away with, including the freakin' roof which they replaced with some kind of odd toupee. All to save weight and get back to the essence of their sports car roots.
End product:
weight savings - minimal
performance gain - marginal
Price? In Canada a Spyder lists for $700 more than an Boxster S. You have to admire their moxy - give 'em less and charge 'em more!

meh, just don't see them getting hyped about making a $30-40-50k car. It's not their way.

[carr914]

Compared to our venerable 914s, the Boxster is a bloated 3000 lb. water cooled & relatively taller monster, loaded with the modern "comfort extras".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Look at the size of a Boxster vs an earlier 911 & 914.



The other thing about Porsche and market segments - the Boxster & Cayman share the same segment.

I would buy a 914 Redux if it was $25-35k. I don't care if it is a Porsche or VW. I think they could make a tidy profit if production costs are kept in check. Look at the VW R32 - they go like stink, have a cult following and have maintained their value very well. I passed on a brand new one that I could have gotten a good deal on because I didn't think they would have resell value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Tom_T]

As far as VWs plans, who knows. My opinion is the current GTI and Scirocco satisfies their sporty car desires. Both models blend in as part of the overall line-up and their styling draws the 20-30 year olds as well as the ricer crowd.

With Porsche, the Boxster Spyder you call up is a perfect case in point for their mindset. To create a more 'basic, fun sports car' as you put it, they took a Boxster S, stripped it of all the modern conveniences they could get away with, including the freakin' roof which they replaced with some kind of odd toupee. All to save weight and get back to the essence of their sports car roots.
End product:
weight savings - minimal
performance gain - marginal
Price? In Canada a Spyder lists for $700 more than an Boxster S. You have to admire their moxy - give 'em less and charge 'em more!

meh, just don't see them getting hyped about making a $30-40-50k car. It's not their way.

Yeah Mike - I love that half-fast pup tent they call a top.

I haven't compared the $61k price tag in the PCA Pando article I was reading, but nobody can accuse Porsche marketing of lack cajones to rape & pillage! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I was actually more interested in gauging a level of interest in the size & type & styling as illustrated in their concept sketch from this group of Teener fans than debating whether they would.

But the lively discussion has been interesting nonetheless! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tom_T]

Compared to our venerable 914s, the Boxster is a bloated 3000 lb. water cooled & relatively taller monster, loaded with the modern "comfort extras".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Look at the size of a Boxster vs an earlier 911 & 914.



The other thing about Porsche and market segments - the Boxster & Cayman share the same segment.

I would buy a 914 Redux if it was $25-35k. I don't care if it is a Porsche or VW. I think they could make a tidy profit if production costs are kept in check. Look at the VW R32 - they go like stink, have a cult following and have maintained their value very well. I passed on a brand new one that I could have gotten a good deal on because I didn't think they would have resell value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Thanx for making the size point visually TC! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

In fact, this gold/yellow styling concept may even be a shorter overall length &/or wheelbase, although it's hard to tell from the sketch.



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
But I'm SURE this one has a shorter wheelbase & length!



Plus they could probably get the costs way down on this with pedal power!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[GeorgeRud]

It's interesting that Porsche may be forced to get a higher mileage model to be able to sell cars in this country (thanks to our government pinheads), as they have to increase their MPG figures every couple of years, and can't do it with the current models.

If a small, light model with an efficient engine (ie 914) could be added to their range, it would help get their fleet average up where they need it. Also, hybrid or diesel engines in the Cayanne and Panamera would also serve a similar purpose.

Maybe the concept isn't as crazy as it seems.

[Dave_Darling]

But - just suppose they did offer this or something very similar - would you & the other naysayers have an interest in it?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

An interest? Yes. Would I buy one? Not at this point. I like my 914 for fun, and my CRX for everyday.

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars.

Not relative to the other cars available at the time. Even the 356 Speedster was more luxurious than its Brit-car counterparts, with a top that was actually slightly useful and cut down on wind noise. The 356 Carrera 2 was very expensive and luxurious at the time. And the 911 was looked at with utter shock at the time by the 356 Faithful, because it was large and overweight and cost about double what the 356 did.

Even the 914-4 was expensive in its day; I think you could buy a new Vette in 1970 for what a 914-4 was running.

--DD

[Tom_T]

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars.

Not relative to the other cars available at the time. Even the 356 Speedster was more luxurious than its Brit-car counterparts, with a top that was actually slightly useful and cut down on wind noise. The 356 Carrera 2 was very expensive and luxurious at the time. And the 911 was looked at with utter shock at the time by the 356 Faithful, because it was large and overweight and cost about double what the 356 did.

Even the 914-4 was expensive in its day; I think you could buy a new Vette in 1970 for what a 914-4 was running.

--DD

Yeah but Dave, as Brit car buddies of mine used to say: "You need at least 2 MGs [or whatever] - 1 to drive while the other is in the shop!"

Yup - Vette was about the same price back when I got my 73 2L in 75, as my Uncle reminded me (he had a 58 Vette since 60)! I was in Jr High when a neighbor in San Diego traded in his 62 356 for the "new" 911, & recall the rousing debate he, my Dad & Uncle had bout the relative merits & prices of the two vs. the Vette!

I agree with all your points above on the 356 & 911 series, but certainly Porsche or any sports car today could be built more for driving & less for creature comforts which would go a long way towards smaller size, weight & cost/price.

One thing for sure - history repeats itself, and as another posted above - this recession has an eerie resemblance to the 928/944/968 era, as well as to some others! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Krank]

As TC said - the original Bug collector craze was not hurt, and in fact it renewed interest in collecting the humble Bugs! Look at what they sell for in good condition today - & I recall billboards for them when I was in HS in San Diego in the late `60's advertised for $600, then $800 new!!!!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Yeah, and your regular wage was less than a buck/hr

[Tom_T]

As TC said - the original Bug collector craze was not hurt, and in fact it renewed interest in collecting the humble Bugs! Look at what they sell for in good condition today - & I recall billboards for them when I was in HS in San Diego in the late `60's advertised for $600, then $800 new!!!!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Yeah, and your regular wage was less than a buck/hr

Minimum wage in California was $1.75 then, but I was lucky & made $2.25 then in High School! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

and coffee or a large Coke was 2 bits!

I wuz there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[johannes]

Look at the size of a Boxster vs an earlier 911 & 914.

Boxster / Cayman cannot be that smaller than a 911 because they share a lot of parts .... same doors ...

[tat2dphreak]

as much as I like both of these drawings, I agree, porsche would not produce a sub-40k car. but if they did... I'd seriously have to think about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but at the same time, I don't think I could afford to have that AND a 914... so I think that I would have to decline buying the new one... at least until they get cheap on the used car market (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)