Gauging interest for PnP Megasquirt solution, MS anyone? Options

[JamesM]

For my most recent Megasquirt install i went a different route and had some mini-MS boards produced. It did not make a lot of sense to just have one PCB printed so needless to say i have more then a few empty boards laying around. Now i am trying to decide if it is worth my time and money to build these boards out and sell them as a plug n play solution for d-jet cars.

For those who don't know, mini-ms is electronically compatible with megasquirt 2.2 however the components are arranged tighter on the board and it integrates the relay board all on a form factor smaller then the original MS. My first couple of installs i used a standard megasquirt 2.2 with relay board and DB-37 cable but the mini-ms seemed like the better way to go so that is what i am playing with now.

The setup i a running right now looks almost stock, the mini-ms is enclosed completely in a gutted d-jet brain and plugs directly into the d-jet harness. the only difference from stock is a MAP line running to the brain and the 2 injector ground wires being run back as well. You have to look close to tell its not stock, however i have a feeling i could make it even more stealth by hiding the MAP sensor in an old MPS in order to get rid of the vac line to the ECU. I just have not cared enough to cut up an MPS yet.

The great part about this system is it makes troubleshooting way easier and eliminates the need for stock trigger points, MPS. ECU, decell valve, and cold start injector, though they can all be left in place if desired in order to appear stock. It also allows for cool things if you desire like closed loop operation with a wideband O2 sensor, spark control, rev limiters, traction control, and a bunch of other stuff depending on how far you want to take it. It can be tuned around just about anything, so its great if you want to change cams or go bigger on your motor and still look stock.

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

[mightyohm]

Can you post some pictures of the boards?

I'm not in the market but as a fellow electronics guy I'd like to see what they look like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JamesM]

Can you post some pictures of the boards?

I'm not in the market but as a fellow electronics guy I'd like to see what they look like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I will see about posting some pics when i get home...

[underthetire]

I had often though about it myself. I'm not in the market, running MS now. But it would be cool for smog cars. Think Bluetooth for the communications. That would make it even nicer.

[quadracerx]

For my most recent Megasquirt install i went a different route and had some mini-MS boards produced. It did not make a lot of sense to just have one PCB printed so needless to say i have more then a few empty boards laying around. Now i am trying to decide if it is worth my time and money to build these boards out and sell them as a plug n play solution for d-jet cars.

For those who don't know, mini-ms is electronically compatible with megasquirt 2.2 however the components are arranged tighter on the board and it integrates the relay board all on a form factor smaller then the original MS. My first couple of installs i used a standard megasquirt 2.2 with relay board and DB-37 cable but the mini-ms seemed like the better way to go so that is what i am playing with now.

The setup i a running right now looks almost stock, the mini-ms is enclosed completely in a gutted d-jet brain and plugs directly into the d-jet harness. the only difference from stock is a MAP line running to the brain and the 2 injector ground wires being run back as well. You have to look close to tell its not stock, however i have a feeling i could make it even more stealth by hiding the MAP sensor in an old MPS in order to get rid of the vac line to the ECU. I just have not cared enough to cut up an MPS yet.

The great part about this system is it makes troubleshooting way easier and eliminates the need for stock trigger points, MPS. ECU, decell valve, and cold start injector, though they can all be left in place if desired in order to appear stock. It also allows for cool things if you desire like closed loop operation with a wideband O2 sensor, spark control, rev limiters, traction control, and a bunch of other stuff depending on how far you want to take it. It can be tuned around just about anything, so its great if you want to change cams or go bigger on your motor and still look stock.

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

Im sure there is a market for this....although since I am a complete "idiot" when it comes to FI....the more complete you can make it the better it would sell....Im sure there are quite a few guys that would love a true stock appearing but modern system that could be "really plug and play" so that if you wanted to replace your existing stock system or convert back from carbs you could get the parts in one shot....

[JimN73]

I know very little about MS or other aftermarket systems, so, I hope you don't mind a coupla questions.

What can I expect to gain from an MS install? What's going to be involved in the installation/set up? Can a not-technical person do it?

thanks for your help.

Jim

[Lennies914]

Sounds like it would pay for itself the first time you needed to replace a NLA componant that failed.

[Gint]

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

Sure.

• Price?
• Instructions for the average DIY'er?
• Support? Not just stock but varying configurations and complexity.

[JamesM]

Ill post some pics of what i am playing around with and then get to peoples questions...


none of these pics are by any means a finished product, still experimenting with different ways of mounting/insulating the board. If i do decied to actually sell these as a completed product I want to be sure they are as bullet proof and prettied up as possible.

The d-jet brain i used in the pics was a pretty nasty one, I hate cutting up nice ones. It will be blasted and repainted before the board is installed.

Bare boards front and back
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138111.1.jpg)

Spares (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138111.2.jpg)

Completed board during testing -not yet mounted
wiring here is temporary for testing
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138111.3.jpg)

Compared with an early djet board
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138112.4.jpg)

Blank board in djet case
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138112.5.jpg)


My testbeds...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i48.photobucket.com-5834-1271138112.6.jpg)

[JamesM]

Im sure there is a market for this....although since I am a complete "idiot" when it comes to FI....the more complete you can make it the better it would sell....Im sure there are quite a few guys that would love a true stock appearing but modern system that could be "really plug and play" so that if you wanted to replace your existing stock system or convert back from carbs you could get the parts in one shot....

The idea is to make it as simple as possible, basically get it as close as i can to just swapping out the d-jet ecu. I have done a couple standard megasquirt installs into 914's and this has always been an idea in the back of my mind. The standard MS setup always had some short comings and complexities that i was not happy with and would not have been comfortable handing over to your everyday user. Pending a lot more testing, this may solve those problems.

[JamesM]

Sounds like it would pay for itself the first time you needed to replace a NLA componant that failed.

That was another one of my motivating factors to go MS in the first place. I have owned 914s for 12 years now and i always insisted my cars have the original injection. The problem now is that new d-jet parts are not as easy to come by as they were 12 years ago. This system takes the place of the most expensive ones.

Being able to tune around cam and displacement changes is nice too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I have always liked a stock motor, but a motor that passes for stock while pushing out an extra 30 hp is nice too.

[JamesM]

I know very little about MS or other aftermarket systems, so, I hope you don't mind a coupla questions.

What can I expect to gain from an MS install? What's going to be involved in the installation/set up? Can a not-technical person do it?

thanks for your help.

Jim

The more questions the better, it gives me an idea of where people are at on this.

If you have a perfectly running fuel injected stock motor, I can not say you will gain much at all beyond the geek factor of being able to plug a laptop or palm pilot into a 40 year old car and do some data logging. If you have a good running stock setup and are not looking to tweak anything I say stick with the stock setup.

HOWEVER
Should one of the stock components start acting up this might become an option for you as it takes the place of the majority of d-jet components, while still allowing you to leave them in place to retain a stock look. For people looking to modify their motors while retaining a stock apperance an MS setup offers a lot of advantages.

in my experience with Megasquirt systems some of the bigger "pros" i have encountered:

MUCH easier to diagnose problems - the main reason i first installed one, just plug in your laptop and you can get a sanity check on the whole system

MUCH easier to get a decent tune over the stock system - especally if you use a wideband O2 sensor

It replaces some really expensive and sometimes hard to come by parts.

It allows you to run pretty much any fuel injector you want. - I had a problem with a sticky 2L injector the day before an autox so i swaped them with a set off a 1.7, changed a single variable in the system and was good to go.

It allows tuning for modified engines/cams/exhaust/ whatever

And then there are the options once you have the system installed. They make it less plug and play but they are there if you want them. To many to list here but i will say the biggest gain i got out of my car was locking my advance weights and letting MS handle ignition control. The stock 40 year old dizzy was leaving power on the table for sure.

As far as a non technical person being able to do it, that is what i am aiming for as a stock d-jet replacement. If you wanted to do some of the more advanced things with you would probably want a little more technical ability or someone helping you out. On a technical level, if you can replace parts of your existing d-jet system, you could install this MS setup.

[JamesM]

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

Sure.

• Price?
• Instructions for the average DIY'er?
• Support? Not just stock but varying configurations and complexity.

Price, if i decied to sell them is still to be determined and i dont want to quote anything to soon. There are a lot of factors I am still looking into, one of the bigger ones being...the level of support offered.

Support, I would need to do some testing with an average user to get an idea of the level of support that would be needed for most users, this is partly why a price has yet to be determined as i dont know exactly how much time each customer would require. Ideally I am designing the setup to be as easy as possible but until i have a test customer do an install i wont know for sure.

Support for varying configurations, for a stock d-jet replacement there should only be 2 different configurations, 1.7 and 2.0, and the only real difference between the two as far as MS is concerned is the constants and fuel map. this would be setup before being shipped but could be easily changed later. Ideally i would like to build a collection of fuel maps for common engine configs 1911, 2056, different cams etc, to ease installation there, but that might take some time.

Support for various hardware mods/add ons/upgrades. I already have a small list of things i will include documentation/support on that go beyond a basic d-jet replacement. Some of them i even highly recomend, like a wideband 02 sensor... I think everyone should have one of those anyways reguardless of the fuel system they use. Come to think of it I might even add all the connections you need to install an LC-1 right on the ECU to simplify and clean up the installation of one. there will be documentation and support for a few other common mods that i already have. I am undecided if i will personally support ignition control, the system will be set up for it however anyone that wants to do it may be on their own. System complexity goes up real fast when you thow ignition into the mix and thats getting pretty far from plug and play. Also with ignition control there is a much greater chance of someone frying their motor. I do run it on my autox car and i love it but i would rather not have the liability involved with setting it up on someone elses car, especally if i did not personally install it.


First things first though, I have a background working in hardware/software QA for computer peripherals. At this point it is in my nature to try and find everyway a product could fail or a customer could break something. That being said, before i ever sell one of these I want a bit of time to beat the crap out of it. I have ran for years on a standard MS, but as this is a different board layout I really want to put it through it paces. My current plan is to first install the testing design into my autox car and race it this summer. If the hardware survives autocrossing in august in Utah I will consider it good enough to in the 1.7 car i am building for my wife. I figure if it is relaiable in a car for her good chance it will be for everyone else. Then it goes on a road trip to cali for long distance testing and low altitude fuel map work. Once that is done then i will find a test customer and see how it goes.

If i am to have a product go out under my name, it is going to be as bullet proof and idiot proof as i can get it.

[Mark Henry]

Cool stuff but I'm not in the market...I might be looking at a megajolt though.

[Gint]

Support for various hardware mods/add ons/upgrades. I already have a small list of things i will include documentation/support on that go beyond a basic d-jet replacement. Some of them i even highly recomend, like a wideband 02 sensor... I think everyone should have one of those anyways reguardless of the fuel system they use.

That's the biggest reason I asked. I'd want to use an an wideband O2 regardless.

[DBCooper]

I think you're on to something, especially for those guys who still need to pass the "visual" smog inspection. I also think you're going to need to show people that it's viable for them to buy in. Do you have photos and a description of the system installed on your car? I know it will look just like a stock car, but it would help if you could pointing out exactly what needs to be done and what changes. That will help a lot of people visualize what you're offering, and once they understand that I don't think anyone will have issues with having a modern injection system.

I doubt you're going to run into an avalanche of people buying, but it will be a steadily increasing flow. In addition to those with OEM component failures I think everyone with a stock injection system who has rebuilt his motor has asked if he can put more cam or displacement into it, and has always been told no, not with the stock injection. Every one of those folks would be interested, especially if you can keep it at a reasonable price point.

[type47]

I'm very interested in this. I'd like to do a modern EFI system on a 914 engine.

[biosurfer1]

As far as support goes, I would buy a website domain and get a support forum setup ASAP. I know there are already MS forums out there, but this one you could control and it would hopefully reduce the # of questions asked over and over.

If you buy through godaddy, they have a free forum app that was very easy to setup.

[tradisrad]

I have thought about aftermarket FI, but I also don't know too much about it.
I will read through this a bit later and ask more Q's if I need to.

[Smitty911]

I'd be intrested, I'd also like the Spark Control.

I've been looking at the SDSEFI and at $1,750 for everything needed.

I already have the ITB from Extrudbody.

If your looking for a IDIOT to do some testing, I think I qualify. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

I'm in SoCal so thats close to sea level.