Palindrome 914 Build Thread, now on the chassis jig Options

[nathansnathan]

A shot of it further along, still need to smooth it out with flap disk or now using roton pads on my die grinder, and to tap that bit in there.


I'm pretty happy with it so far, got to put the filter holder on it still, and take it off the other, actually (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)


I've been smoothing/ prepping my long, both pieces, the inner removed the galvanneal mostly, to put them together.

I've been distracted by some other projects, someone hit my bus in the parking ramp at work and I spent a week straightening and painting that. This weekend I am putting egt probes in the heat exchangers.

I managed to move the car onto the dolly, though, and I'm loving being able to clean beneath it, ...and walk through the shop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)


I was actually comparing the frequency of the rd jackplate piece there with an original that I found, using a guitar tuner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Very productive, I know, but they are somehow different, like in there temper or something because they weigh about the same, but they are just different.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

Thanks for the comments, again. I hope to post meaningful updates soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[dheming]

Looking good. You should make your custom title "The Surgeon" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Are still using the same spot weld drill bit? Was just wondering how long they last.

[nathansnathan]

Looking good. You should make your custom title "The Surgeon" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Are still using the same spot weld drill bit? Was just wondering how long they last.

Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) I started out just using a regular drill bit, but it does make extra work. There are few options for spot weld drills, even just at Eastwood, but I went with the expensive ones. I got replacement guide bits and cutting tips, but I'm still using the same one after a ridiculous amount of welds drilled. I use cutting oil fanatically. The drawback to spot weld drills is they are all huge, the hole they make.

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-skip-proof-spotweld-cutter.html#

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.eastwood.com-11782-1344457453.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.eastwood.com-11782-1344457455.2.jpg)

I'm currently full on building the rotisserie. I've ordered the electric cable hoists, like we talked about. I want to be able to use it on the bus someday so it's going to be pretty insane; I got the 750/1500lbs ones. -Weird that they have gone up in price since last week? They were $182 and now they are $220. I will post the drawing when I get home; it's kind of a work in progress.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.northerntool.com-11782-1344457455.3.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.northerntool.com-11782-1344457455.4.jpg)

[nathansnathan]

I've been turning over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) ideas of how to do this for months now. The challenge is to be able to lift it high enough to fully flip it, from the position it would be in sitting on its tires.

I want to be able to lift my bus on this also, just the body of course, but I've made it beefy to handle that.

Another part of the challenge is that you need to lift both sides at once, because if you don't, the car becomes like the the hypotenuse of a triangle, sort of, wanting to stretch.

The problem is that variation in the axis from end to end would also put stress on the car, in a rigid setup. And on top of this, the hoists move 3.5 inches a second direct, half that reduced with the pulley setup, but it seems inevitable that something should get off, one side higher. I can imagine tearing the car up with some stuck cable scenario, and so I've designed it to flex in the final version.

The long arm ram jacks have 19 inches of travel, and you need at least 25 so this one wasn't working.


I went through more ideas in between, toying with 'samba rotisseries' which are like a pair of octagons, partial versions of that as well. But I ended up with this, trying to keep it simple (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

There is to be a sleeve of plate (by my ankle there, should be in the side view but was left below), similar to that which goes up and down along the vertical support, but on the crossbeam so it can elongate - got to figure out how to limit it. There are hinges which are integrated to the mounts, and then a hinge between the pivot and the support arm. The whole car is like part of a joint. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) and can pivot either way at both ends, if not for the other.

[dheming]

Nice to know that the spot weld cutters last so long. Really $35 is not that bad for such a thing. If I decide to remove my pedal box I will be getting one for sure.

Glad to see you moving forward on the rotisserie. The nice thing about going with hoists is that you can also use them in an A-frame to make a small shop crane. Multifunctionality is always a good thing when buying tools.

Making the car able to flex/hinge with four joints might not be the greatest idea. The thing is that having the hinges the way you show in the drawing, as soon as you put weight on it you will effectively pull the two end towers towards each other as the load moves downwards a bit. Just visualize a rope connecting the two towers, now pull down hard on the middle of the rope. This will get worse the higher up the tower the load moves due to leverage. Also I foresee that when you rotate the car 90° to vertical that it will want to oscillate side to side a bit when you go to work on it, again due to the towers bending inwards a bit. Now if you only had two hinge joints you would still allow for unequal hoist speeds, but you wouldn't have the drooping or swaying issues. So I'd keep the hinges that are on the mounts and get rid of the ones on the vertical towers.

Also what are you planning to do for safety stops, like if the cable breaks on the way up?

As to the crossbeam elongation limiter, you could just drill a series of holes and then cut/grind the excess out to make a slot on the inner tube. Then you could just screw a bolt through the outer tube into that slot to have a limited range of sliding allowed. I imagine a slot a few inches long would be fine.

[nathansnathan]

Nice to know that the spot weld cutters last so long. Really $35 is not that bad for such a thing. If I decide to remove my pedal box I will be getting one for sure.

Glad to see you moving forward on the rotisserie. The nice thing about going with hoists is that you can also use them in an A-frame to make a small shop crane. Multifunctionality is always a good thing when buying tools.

Making the car able to flex/hinge with four joints might not be the greatest idea. The thing is that having the hinges the way you show in the drawing, as soon as you put weight on it you will effectively pull the two end towers towards each other as the load moves downwards a bit. Just visualize a rope connecting the two towers, now pull down hard on the middle of the rope. This will get worse the higher up the tower the load moves due to leverage. Also I foresee that when you rotate the car 90° to vertical that it will want to oscillate side to side a bit when you go to work on it, again due to the towers bending inwards a bit. Now if you only had two hinge joints you would still allow for unequal hoist speeds, but you wouldn't have the drooping or swaying issues. So I'd keep the hinges that are on the mounts and get rid of the ones on the vertical towers.

Also what are you planning to do for safety stops, like if the cable breaks on the way up?

As to the crossbeam elongation limiter, you could just drill a series of holes and then cut/grind the excess out to make a slot on the inner tube. Then you could just screw a bolt through the outer tube into that slot to have a limited range of sliding allowed. I imagine a slot a few inches long would be fine.

About multi-functionality, I'm thinking of it with the 2 ends bolted together, fitting a sort of platform in between to make a super heavy duty stand/ lift , to like get an engine off a jack and onto an engine stand for example.

About the stress relieving hinges, there are 4 at the mounts that would pivot if one end of the car only was to be raised while the car was in its upright position. But say you want to raise or lower 1 end when it's flipped on its side, 90 degrees. For this there are the 2 pivots at the middle where these meet the verticals - these pivot in a different axis than the other. The drawing shows the top (raised up) "yoke" in both positions at once so it looks kind of like they pivit in the same axis, but no. You do start to imagine regardless, the stress, say on the bumper mounts, the tops wanting to go inward, the bottoms out, but it's necessary imo to relieve the stress of it cocking. If the car were flipped like 70 degrees, you might see some combination of the slop in both joints combined. It does stress the horizontal, and the joints between, but the verticals and the horizontals, as well as the diagonals are all 1/4 inch wall, 2x3 for the horizontals and diagonals, 4x4 for the verticals. The cross pieces to which the casters are connected, I realized after I bought them, 3/16 wall, but the stress on those should be pretty controlled.

Safety measures while lifting it? Just go up one 'hole' at a time so if it does break, the cable, it won't fall too far. Going with the bigger hoists I consider something of a preventative measure, the 200/400 has 1/8" cable, the 500/1000 has 5/32. The ones I got, 750/1500 must have a typo on the site to say 9/50 inch?

I'm thinking the slot will probably be the way for the middle section, like you've said.

[dheming]

Ah yeah, I see what you are saying about the hinges. Should be fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you scale up from the numbers you gave for the other cables, the 750 should have around a 0.191" to 0.242" cable. So maybe they meant 9/32" which would be around 0.281". Not sure, you will have to measure when you get them.

[dheming]

Any progress on the rotisserie after getting the hoists?

[ConeDodger]

Wow! I wish someone would put this much effort into building a carbon fiber body!

[nathansnathan]

Any progress on the rotisserie after getting the hoists?

I didn't see this until today. I've been so busy with work, I haven't been able to keep up with email. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Funny, I see you are looking at this thread right now. I will post an update soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[nathansnathan]

I've been working on the rotisserie for about 3-4 weeks now. I went to Guelph, Ontario for about a week with Kirsten to see the family's old farmhouse which is amazing.

I haven't gotten to assembling the hoist cages yet - I'm concentrating on what I am calling the "yokes" - the parts that attach to the car (like the yoke of an engine stand only bigger). The drawing posted above is pretty small, but here are close ups to show the pivots that have taken a lot of my time the past few weeks. I call the individual pieces of the pivots, "leaves" as they are interleaved for strength, 1/4" plate x 4", they are.





It would likely have been easier to grind the shapes from rectangles cut from a strip, but I made them from 4" squares and circles that I cut in half on the band saw and welded to each other. The ones on the far right are for the pivot at the car to yoke; there are 8 for now but I need to do still eight more.

The bigger ones to the left are for the spanning beams to the pivot plate. -I've got names for all the parts, I suppose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif) I changed the design to make the outers longer halfway through making them so those pieces have 2 beads on them. There are 4 outers - 2 for the 2 yokes, and a total of 20. So 4 and 20 black birds baked in a pie. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) You can see one of my 12" filter fans with re-useable aluminum mesh filter - I have 3 going as it is hot here, even still.



Some of my favorite clamps. The aluminum is way too thin a backer for what I am about to do here, and ends up seriously warped.



2-3 passes each, cooling between, they still warp a little with the heat. I maybe should have preheated them. I beat them flat with a hammer though. The circles ended up being a marginal bit thicker than the squares. It would be nice to have a mill, but I have a grinder. Derek, you should remember that verysame bell grinder wheel that we used on the lathe table. It has slowly got shorter.

The big plates are to be mounts for the casters. An odd size, I had to make them from cut 8" squares of 1/4 inch plate.

The smaller pieces with the 3/4" holes marked on the left are to be backing plates for where the car is attached, 3/16 plate. I made 4 But realize I have to use just washers in back as the trunk floor divides the top and bottom bumper mount holes. This would prove to be just the first complication presented by the cars rear end.

DOM tube for the main pivots, ready to be faced at right.



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) That is some gnarly stuff there, the edges on the circles I mean, My grinder will fix them.



Drilled the holes first this time. These will be the mounts to the car. The saw gets its own fan.



The drawing doesn't have them, but I added spacers to the design of the pivots, so the leaves don't bend under side load. The assembly just behind the flap wheel is 2 leaves joined by the spacer. To the left of that is similar with a base, and the process there in the vice.



3/4" shoulder bolts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) 4" long for the beam pivots and a 2.5" at each end. Got these from McMaster car, all grade eight or equivalent, I got everything in socket head cap screw, black oxide finish for the hardware.



The "forearms" of the yoke are longer than in the drawing to allow greater access.


The other setback at the rear, the mounts point out by10 degrees of straight. I got this all jigged up and even tacked together before realizing the error in my thinking here. That is a box of 3 of the 15" version of the filter fans there. They do like twice the cfm's as the 12", so 750 and 1500 cfms for the 12 and 15 inch respectively, 3 of each, plus the crazy contraption seen on the bench above, I hope will be adequate for the paint booth.



ABout the rear bumper, the plan is to do both to fit to the front which is straight on, and to make adaptor plates to fit the back, which is also closer together by a bit iirc. The outer pivots will have another set of leaves at the outers at all 4 corners - those other 8 leaves I've yet to make. I plan to triangulate, a 4" x 1/4" triangle plate at the inner of the elbows also, a web elbow for strength. I've got both ends welded, a bit more than in this pic now, and soon to mount the leaves right to the middles there.



My little bandsaw has been busy. I was able to straighten out the tabs to get it to cut straight again. For a bit I was having to grind them straight, ever piece. I had to weld the vertical there and 1 of the horizontals, too as it is all remnants. With the car on the dolly, the adriatic jack stands have procreated. ... proud papa there in back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



It is coming along, working on it this weekend, I will start attaching the span pivot leaves with spacers which I'll need to cut and then attach those to yokes directly.

I'm hoping that once the yokes, with the labor-intensive pivots are done, that the rest of the thing will go far more quickly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) .

[nathansnathan]

Updating where I'm at to give a better idea of the real thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[dheming]

Nice fat update, looking good. Personally I think I would have just paid someone to plasma cut all the leaves for the hinge points. More arc time for you though so it's all good. Bummer that the circles where a slightly different thickness than the flat stock.

Last time I went to ALCO they some nice fat aluminum plate drops. They had a 24" x 36" x 3/4" plate that would make a nice little welding table top. You need to upgrade from that shim stock you be using as a backer. I'll see if I can score you something from my work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

I can't believe that grinder wheel is still doing it's thing! That mofo is 3 years old now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I love that giganto C-clamp in that pic too. Looks super useful.

Good thing you caught that that 10° mount thing before you fully welded everything up. Would have been a lot more work than just breaking some tacks apart if you had.

All those hinges look pretty sweet in that last pic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) The culmination of hours of work cutting, grinding and welding must feel good to see put together for the first time.

[Archie]

Picking up here, update the thread.
I met up with David again, I'd been thinking about the fresh air vents on his roller ever since I'd seen a week or 2 before getting the Mahles. I got some pics this time.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1307842265.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1307842266.2.jpg)

The car is pretty crusty at the longs and jack point is floating in the rocker, lower firewall is bad, and floors. She was well done, and so with the fresh air vents being very good compared to mine
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1291591584.2.jpg)

Rather barbaric, I used a .40" cutting wheel on my 4 1/2 inch angle grinder.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1307842266.3.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1307842266.4.jpg)

I got the seam sealers all out with the heat gun and scraping screw driver, some rust in there but solid. I've started blasting and it's looking great.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.914club.com-11782-1307842267.5.jpg)

Will get a picture of after blasting and how I'm gonna install later.

Yeah. That seam-sealer is a complete PITA to dig out, especially around the shoulder-height vents in the door jambs!

[nathansnathan]

Yeah. That seam-sealer is a complete PITA to dig out, especially around the shoulder-height vents in the door jambs!

A heat gun and a big blunt screw driver gets it, but yeah it is a bear. Here is the other




It is easier when it is cut out! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nathansnathan]

I've been eager to post a meaningful update, but ..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My welder has been out of commission since the last post which has been awhile. It is 2 1/2 years old, still under warrantee, brought it to the service place and they charge me $200 for points because they are consumables, not covered. I bring it back home, and it still won't work, like it would start but no amperage. I bring it back again and the guy looks at it right when I'm there, 2 seconds and he's like, "It's the capacitor". So another week or so to get the part from Miller, and I think it is working now. I haven't got to try it very long because I went on vacation to Guelph, Ontario for a week, then ran out of gas right before New Year's and no one was open. I finally have a tank and am ready to get started again.

I should post pics of the lights I am building for the paint booth. A little OT but, they are the best strip lights ever! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[dheming]

Bummer about the welder still having problems. I remember when my machine was down for a month straight because no one had a gas hose locally.. My shop came to a standstill.

I'm looking forward to seeing the light fixtures. 100% stainless construction is not something you see everyday. How's the new welding table coming along?

I've been eager to post a meaningful update, but ..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My welder has been out of commission since the last post which has been awhile. It is 2 1/2 years old, still under warrantee, brought it to the service place and they charge me $200 for points because they are consumables, not covered. I bring it back home, and it still won't work, like it would start but no amperage. I bring it back again and the guy looks at it right when I'm there, 2 seconds and he's like, "It's the capacitor". So another week or so to get the part from Miller, and I think it is working now. I haven't got to try it very long because I went on vacation to Guelph, Ontario for a week, then ran out of gas right before New Year's and no one was open. I finally have a tank and am ready to get started again.

I should post pics of the lights I am building for the paint booth. A little OT but, they are the best strip lights ever! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[nathansnathan]

Bummer about the welder still having problems. I remember when my machine was down for a month straight because no one had a gas hose locally.. My shop came to a standstill.

I'm looking forward to seeing the light fixtures. 100% stainless construction is not something you see everyday. How's the new welding table coming along?

I've just been using the welding table on top of my work bench, raised on sections of 2x6. The treadle stand was not up to the task, and I'm going to have to look for another option for a base.


Derek at work on the table...


I've been working on the paint booth setup to get this handled. Lights are part of that set up. The complete picture involves a lot of fans, another palette rack and floor section, the rotisserie completed, and plywood enclosure for the booth.

Lights are coming along. I've got 2, almost 3 done. I was going to make 2 4 footers, but it turns out that I was misguided and they don't make single pin instant start 4' t8 bulbs. -for some reason I thought I had found the ballasts, but they aren't what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) I will figure something out.





I sewed the nylon supports from pieces cut off a nylon tie down strap. I need to weld that one where I goofed with the mill to do the 4th still.


Mounting the ballasts inside with aluminum rivnuts.


Aluminum cord strain relief, use npt thread. Stainless torx drive 10-24. Pics were blurry of the stainless square nuts I welded to the inside - quite a challenge to make the end caps.


While the welder was down, I moved the loft to the other side, to turn it into part of a paint booth. It will have to be twice as big, though to fit the rotisserie. It's great to be able to see the 914 again though. A few weeks it sat in the dark.


Just cleaning parts and fondling my wiring harness during that time, rubbing its brittle ends with glycerin, brass wire brushing the connector ends which are quite oxidized, I've been putting dielectric grease on them. The hot ones, I've redone the cracked off heat shrink at the ends. It turns out half the front of the harness the wires were all melted together. The driver side front side marker, parking light, and turn signal had no insulation at all, burned up. Missing the rear license plate light wires... I was able to replace it all using parts of the impressively screwed up harness from the black car. It is coming along, got to give it more going through.

I been working on the driver side fresh air duct since the lights have been up. Hopefully I will post pics of that soon. I made an impressive hole in the car there today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Archie]

Picking up here, update the thread.
I met up with David again, I'd been thinking about the fresh air vents on his roller ever since I'd seen a week or 2 before getting the Mahles. I got some pics this time.

The car is pretty crusty at the longs and jack point is floating in the rocker, lower firewall is bad, and floors. She was well done, and so with the fresh air vents being very good compared to mine

Rather barbaric, I used a .40" cutting wheel on my 4 1/2 inch angle grinder.

Yeah. I got a crusty jamb vent on the driver's side. Looks like you're getting there though!

I got the seam sealers all out with the heat gun and scraping screw driver, some rust in there but solid. I've started blasting and it's looking great.

Will get a picture of after blasting and how I'm gonna install later.

Yeah. That seam-sealer is a complete PITA to dig out, especially around the shoulder-height vents in the door jambs!

[porsche_dreamer]

3 months and no updates?