Spoilers, SCCA legal Options

[J P Stein]

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.

[jjackson]

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.

I think it would be worth the effort also-either three piece spoiler or two piece trunk with single piece spoiler.JJackson

[Randal]

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.

I think it would be worth the effort also-either three piece spoiler or two piece trunk with single piece spoiler.JJackson

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.

[jjackson]

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson

[Randal]

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 27 2011, 07:41 PM' post='1484644']
Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson
[/quote]


No wrong directions..just always moving forward.

Wish you folks could be running Medford with us. It sure looks like fun.

Got to buy a video camera before that event.

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm

[J P Stein]

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm

This fella offered to fab some bigger rear flares for Brit's car to get some more meat there.....for a reasomable price.

[Randal]

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm

This fella offered to fab some bigger rear flares for Brit's car to get some more meat there.....for a reasomable price.

Right, Britain is the one who told me about him. It looks like he is pretty active with the Medford Group and also runs the hillclimb. Was hoping to meet him at the event.

Can you imagine nice alumimum fenders all around? Pretty trick and light.

[Randal]

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.

I think it would be worth the effort also-either three piece spoiler or two piece trunk with single piece spoiler.JJackson

When you say the two piece trunk this comes to mind, filled in of course.

[J P Stein]

While the 2 piece trunk is also workable it means cutting a $400+ trunk lid and coming up with some support/tie down for the both sections at its center rear ( can't see leaving them to flop around)....that wouldn't happen in my house. In lieu of this, fitting the end plates and securing them would be a stinker.....but I've successfully done worse and it has to be done in either case.

Having the guy fab some rear flares seems like a slam dunk. The man is an artist.

[jjackson]

Slept on it-Reality is were putting out ideas in fabricating a part that has to work efficiently.To compete at a high level in EM SCCA competition-
Power to weight
rolling speed through corners
usable torque and HP
aerodynamic devices to help all of these equations
proper gearing
hell of a drive
All of the things that you attempt to improve on this list will not work.The learning process and the development is the fun-You are chasing fast with a car that has been really develloped alot of different ways by a lot of different people.I used to compete with an FP car that I knew was not superior to past champion cars (ie York car )not to mention the Gullick,Fordahl car.We kept changing,developing,chasing, got a few rule changes- and now were developed to a pretty high level.Some budget tight years, we just changed a sticker.Other years we could do a lot more.
ENJOY your project-take it to a level that others have not seen.personally Im a 914 guy in amodern car world-Fortunately we get rule changes and developments in technology that allow us to go places that previous cars couldn't take advantage of.IE shock technology,splitters, new spoiler specifications.....The earlier succesful cars had to come up with these things on there own-and fabricate .We have a lot more information to draw from.LOL JJackson
PS-Hate to see proven,crazy fast cars, not selling compared to cars that have the long "want list " of impressive parts that do sell.I've driven more broke cars with impressive lists than CORRECT cars.

[Randal]

While the 2 piece trunk is also workable it means cutting a $400+ trunk lid and coming up with some support/tie down for the both sections at its center rear ( can't see leaving them to flop around)....that wouldn't happen in my house. In lieu of this, fitting the end plates and securing them would be a stinker.....but I've successfully done worse and it has to be done in either case.

Having the guy fab some rear flares seems like a slam dunk. The man is an artist.

I'm going to try to come to Medford early and stop by Grants Pass and visit his shop.

Also I like the three piece spoiler deal, but having trouble figuring out how to hold the outside pieces on with just a single perch, or whatever you call it, like you built for the back of your original 10" spoiler.

The spoiler idea is really pretty interesting, especially from a budget perspective as you can definitely help the car with out huge cost, i.e., +/- about 300 bucks depending on what you use for uprights or perches.

Unlike a new set of bilstein, revalved to work with the car. (The cars set up right now is pretty good = I'm not looking forward to taking everything apart to figure out sprung and unsprung weight).

Or a new set of light wheels that will take 6lbs off each corner.

Or a new set of Hoosiers.

Oh yea, got to get those alumimun fenders made. That could drop the car's weight (guessing) about 30-40 lbs.

But for right now I'll keep reminding myself of what Bontempi told me a long time ago, seat time is the biggest factor! No question that is where the most improvement can be secured for the next 6 months and it's easy on the budget.

[J P Stein]

When one is operating on a limited budget there are many experiments that, while you'd love to try, just aren't in the wallet. So, you do what you can afford but make damn sure the car doesn't break.....trial & error doesn't make it here.....a broken (or semi-broken) car is a looser every time.

Next you need to be able to measure improvement. With the ever changing
courses/venues, comparative times with your fellow competitors are about the only data points available. Not an exact science but over time it's worked for me.

[jjackson]

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm
[/quote]
Cool thread.Would definitely like to meet that guy.Learn all you can.You need light and fabrication...Hmmmm.JJackson

[hot_shoe914]

Got to buy a video camera before that event.

Don't forget the GoPro group buy is still going on.

[Borderline]

I think you might be getting carried away with the rear spoiler. The spoiler isn't causing the down force all by itself. What it does is slow the velocity of the air over the rear deck lid. Without the spoiler, the high velocity air over the rear deck causes lift...bad. By placing the spoiler at the rear of the deck, it restricts the air flow and hopefully gives some down force on the deck. At a minimum it should reduce the lift. Making the spoiler a whole lot wider than the horizontal section of the rear deck doesn't seem to make much sense to me. On a 914 there is only a small flat section on either side of the trunk before it curves down the side. I would mount the spoiler to the deck lid and be done with it. The other thing is that Randal has a full roll cage and the 914 targa hoop messing up the air flow over the car. The Sprite has only a a roll bar and driver's head restricting the flow. I don't know which is better: good air flow and a good spoiler or turbulent air flow and a spoiler??????????

[J P Stein]

Bill:
That's the nice thing about building a race car, you can do anything you want...within the rules. You can do research on an issue and choose to employ an item or not. The results show up at the track (or in this case AX).
Other's opinions on the net are free and in some cases, wise.....others are worth what they cost.
It appears to me that Randal is making a good run at building a hell of an AXer to compete in a larger arena. Pay attention, you may learn sumthin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Borderline]

Bill:
That's the nice thing about building a race car, you can do anything you want...within the rules. You can do research on an issue and choose to employ an item or not. The results show up at the track (or in this case AX).
Other's opinions on the net are free and in some cases, wise.....others are worth what they cost.
It appears to me that Randal is making a good run at building a hell of an AXer to compete in a larger arena. Pay attention, you may learn sumthin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

JP:
I'm always trying to learn, it's just sometimes I'm a little slow...I know just like my driving. It seems to me that if you are copying what someone else is doing, that you will always be one step behind and a little off pace.

Yes Randal's car is going great and has tons of potential. I'm sure he is going to be very quick in it.

[URY914]

Bill:
That's the nice thing about building a race car, you can do anything you want...within the rules. You can do research on an issue and choose to employ an item or not. The results show up at the track (or in this case AX).
Other's opinions on the net are free and in some cases, wise.....others are worth what they cost.
It appears to me that Randal is making a good run at building a hell of an AXer to compete in a larger arena. Pay attention, you may learn sumthin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[J P Stein]

Per SCCA rules, E Mods cannot use wings......XP cars can.....go figure.
As a result when E Mods gather (such as the Lincoln NT here) there iare a fairly narrow range of spoilers attending. All they have in common is they are built to the max of the rules (for the most part).

The Jeep is new. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[J P Stein]

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