We are screwed smog law passed Options

[Pnambic]

If I seem a bit agitated, it's only because I used to be a head mechanic at a VW shop and I changed my profession just because I realized I was helping unknowing people muck up  the air by keeping old cars running.

... To me that says you would just as well breath the soup they call "air" in the big cities in China.

Your comment about China makes my point! The real aim of the liberal political philisopy is control, not clean air. In China, the governement controls everything, and their air is horrible.

And that whole deal about how you used to be a VW head mechanic, but then quit because you didn't want to help us poor saps like us unknowingly destroy the environment is a little arragant. My 914 used to get 32+ mpg. My New Beetle gets 24 on the highway!

The goverment going after hot-rodders and classic car owners is just a way for them to look like they are doing something so those environmental extreemists will vote for them. Making it harder on a few car owners won't have any real effect on air quality.

Come on now, I know you're pissed and all and I understand. But you can't say that because Communist China screwed up the air, it'll happen here if we allow them to start restricting the use of above-average poluting engines. Thats just silly.

Otmar's not disputing gas mileage, he's talking about polution. Even if your teener used to get 32+ mpg, (A beetle should be getting around 30. I'd be concerned about the beetle getting only 24.) I'd be willing to bet it produces far more polution.

I don't think he's being arogant, just responsible given the information and opinions he has. The argument on exactly what and how much damage is being caused by older cars is a much more difficult one as there is a lot of theory all over the place, and a lot of lab fact, but its much more difficult to measure specifically as the changes in the atmosphere surrounding big cities has been affected by countless other variables over the years as well. But I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that reducing polutants is a good thing. There are lots of other sources but this happens to be a place to start. I'm sure that there have been large changes in laws govering manufacturing processes over the years too.

Now that visual inspection crap is just plain rediculous. I don't know law, but is there a quicker/easier way to challenge that law other than petitioning or voting someone in office hoping they'll tackle it? Can you take the state to court for something like that?

[Eric_Shea]

fill in your location so we know WHICH STATE YOUR TALKING ABOUT!

Really now... was there ever a question which state we're talking about here? Think about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[fiid]

If I seem a bit agitated, it's only because I used to be a head mechanic at a VW shop and I changed my profession just because I realized I was helping unknowing people muck up  the air by keeping old cars running.

... To me that says you would just as well breath the soup they call "air" in the big cities in China.

Your comment about China makes my point! The real aim of the liberal political philisopy is control, not clean air. In China, the governement controls everything, and their air is horrible.

And that whole deal about how you used to be a VW head mechanic, but then quit because you didn't want to help us poor saps like us unknowingly destroy the environment is a little arragant. My 914 used to get 32+ mpg. My New Beetle gets 24 on the highway!

The goverment going after hot-rodders and classic car owners is just a way for them to look like they are doing something so those environmental extreemists will vote for them. Making it harder on a few car owners won't have any real effect on air quality.

Liberal does not equal communist.

That kind of extemism is what I expect of Osama Bin Laden + friends, not of an intelligent westerner.

The aim is not control; it is to target the worst polluting vehicles and try to control their output. It's like anything - if your teener runs mostly fine, but the brakes suck, what do you fix first?

Spend some time in LA. LA is in a basin which basically gets sealed off at the top by a layer of smog. I'm no expert, but I believe that it is getting better down there because of emissions control. You can SEE the smog - it taint's the color of the sky. It is not a good thing.

None of us like change, especially when it's decreed from some government beurocrat, but sometimes we have to evolve.

The china situation is waiting to happen. I like this country - I think it's sort of a victim of it's own success, but it's treated me very well and I am grateful. That does not stop us looking like an ASS to the rest of the world. If we do not try to clean up our act, we will look stupid when we ask China to clean up there act. They don't have a problem now. They have a growing economy with 25% of the worlds population that are just getting within reach of buying a car. We have about 5% of the worlds population. Do the math. It could get bad, and it will be worse for your kids.

Noone's saying you have to ditch your teener. Accept the challenge - get a clean modern engine, clean up an old engine - or go electric! You could also run propane - which will also get you into the HOV lane (IIRC). There are plenty of pre 75 teeners about if you want to run gasolene, and experiment with the 75 and 76 cars. Or just swap them out of state.

Be grateful that the original version of this law did not pass. The original version just killed the exemption and EVERY CAR would be in for the smog check. That is not what is happening, so every car who has ever been smog exempt is still smog exempt.

I'm still waiting for a Jake Raby PZEV motor....... Bring it on.

[fiid]

BTW. As for selling the SMOG credit - we should all oppose that. We are doing this for a better world, not so some freakin company can get a break on doing the right thing.

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Try living in Phoenix, AZ where every car 1968 or newer must pass SMOG once each year. ARGH!

[PorscheTom]

I don't trust air I can't see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)


Sooner or later it's going to happen. They're going to repeal some part of the original rolling exemption law. Hell, they try to do something with it every stinking year.

I thought they had more pressing things to get done, like fixing this states financial woe's but I guess not.

It's like a bond issue on the ballot. If it doesn't pass the first time they try, try again until it does finally pass.

[gklinger]

Try living in Phoenix, AZ where every car 1968 or newer must pass SMOG once each year. ARGH!

Which is especially fun in a teener... This ain't no idle test - some $8/hr yocal who's never seen one has to drive it on the roller, can't find the gears, starts out in 3rd. Pisses me off every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fighting19.gif) No wonder the fucker won't pass, you don't know how to drive the goddamn thing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[maf914]

The real aim of the liberal political philisopy is control

You should consider what you've said and take a look at Bush and Ashcroft. Are you calling them liberal?

What is that old expression? "People in glass houses..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[newdeal2]

It seems to me people like Michael Moore going overseas and putting down ALL of America [un chalenged] is only hurting us. It is people like Moore who try to act as if they are smart they can't see the damage they are causing. Believe it or not Moore is only interested in lining his own pockets. He's a real scumbag.

I don't really care what political party you belong to we all need to stand together during these tough times.

God Bless America

Happy 4th everyone!

Go Lance , the TDF is yours

[SirAndy]

It seems to me people like Michael Moore going overseas and putting down ALL of America [un chalenged] is only hurting us. It is people like Moore who try to act as if they are smart they can't see the damage they are causing. Believe it or not Moore is only interested in lining his own pockets. He's a real scumbag.

haha, dude, you were just waiting for a chance (ANY chance) to get that off your chest, didn't you?
even if it's not related to the topic on hand ...

tell you what. i bet a sixpack of good german beer that you haven't seen his latest movie, but you sure have a opinion about the guy.

watch the movie, let it sink in for a day, then come back and talk again ...

it's not MM who's putting down america "overseas", it's the actions of this country that make it look bad. he just has the balls to point it out.
btw. no one overseas needs MM for that, they all know the truth better than you guys anyways. kinda scary, eh?


flame on brothers!
Andy

[Dr Evil]

Fuck, I just couldn't let it go <_<

The real aim of the liberal political philisopy is control

Wrong! Try doing a search on the finer parts of Fascism

Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.

"rejects liberal ideas", ""strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism"

M. Moore is a necessary evil, a political gadfly. It IS a shame that he ruins our patriotistic buzz, but we need to maintain an open mind and weigh everything equally and as unbiased as human nature will allow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[thomasotten]

Well, it sounds like from some of the comments that you Californians pretty much are getting what you deserve. I even read some posts about putting electric motors in 914s so they pass smog? And everyone is saying to do this "for a better world". Wow. Well, thats 30 years of hippie B.S. that finally made it through the government schools and into the hearts and minds of alot of you. The laws on the books should reflect the best science thats out there, not what makes people feel better. Has anyone run a study as to how many people drive old clunkers anyways, to make this new law legitimate?

But enough of that. Here are my main objections:

1. Justice dictates that vehicles that could not meet todays emissions when they were built, should not be forced to meet the newer, tighter restrictions of today.

2. Secondly, if you are going to require tighter restrictions, then how can they possibly dictate that you cannot modify your car to meet these standards? Is that what you guys mean by "visual inspections"? Do they check your car out, even if it passes smog? The point is the most erroneous of them all because it effectively says that "you can't build your own car". In other words, if you can't modify your own car to comply with the law, then that gives an upper hand to the big auto manufacturers.

BTW, DrEvil is confusing classical liberalism with modern liberalism. Two different animals.
If you are looking for fascists, look no further than the tyranical judges on the 9th Circuit that deny the peoples voice.

[lapuwali]

The CA smog check requires a visual check of all of the smog equipment shown on a list that's unique to each model of car (said list provided by the state and downloaded at each smog test by the inspector). If the list says you have an air pump, there has to be an air pump on the car. If it says you have fuel injection, there can't be a set of carbs, etc.

This is independent of the tailpipe test. If you remove a carb from a late 70s car and fit aftermarket fuel injection, you'll fail the test even if your emissions are 10x better than they were before.

Now, in practice, if you pass the tailpipe test, you usually pass, period. But you're rolling the dice if you make modifications.

There is an out here, in that specific equipment that the state authorities have blessed may be fitted. So, things like aftermarket "cool intakes" can be fitted after they've been tested. Even things like complete aftermarket turbo kits complete with extra injectors and an ECU can be fitted, so long as the manufacturer gets the blessing. However, these tests are expensive enough that such a kit has to sell in pretty good numbers for it to be worthwhile financially.

You can also perform a complete engine swap, so long as you follow a set of fairly reasonable guidelines, and get the car inspected at a special state station once to get blessed.

And before you get all snooty about "us Californians", you should check what your own legislature is doing. Many other states are adopting California emissions regulations (including Texas), in whole or in part.

[Otmar]

* Has anyone run a study as to how many people drive old clunkers anyways, to make this new law legitimate?

1.  Justice dictates that vehicles that could not meet todays emissions when they were built, should not be forced to meet the newer, tighter restrictions of today.

2.  Secondly, if you are going to require tighter restrictions, then how can they possibly dictate that you cannot modify your car to meet these standards?  Is that what you guys mean by "visual inspections"?  Do they check your car out, even if it passes smog?  The point is the most erroneous of them all because it effectively says that "you can't build your own car".  In other words, if you can't modify your own car to comply with the law, then that gives an upper hand to the big auto manufacturers.

* California Air Resources Board (CARB) has all that information, it's often quoted. I believe it's public too, but I haven't read the originals.

1) AFAIK You only have to meet the old smog levels.

2) See above.
Visual inspection means that all the original equipment must be in place. This is because they don't have time to do a week long evap emissions test and full driving tests. The smog tests that we have to do are just checking a small part of that which a new production model is tested to.

This is the root problem with modifications, real testing is complicated and difficult.

[RocknRollFrenzy]

Its true that cars will only have to meet the old emission level requirements, but they will have to do it in a different testing environment. (on a dyno). For some cars, having to be tested under load can make them fail where they wouldn't otherwise, however, for some they may actually pass where they didn't before. Being under load has the added effect of making CAT's run hotter (which will make them more effective up to a point) along with a few others.

As for whether or not getting rid of the rolling emmisions exemption is good or not, I think its a mixed deal. There aren't a huge number of '76 914's around, or even Porsche's in general, really. Even fewer Ferrari's Lambo's old Jags, MG's etc. Even BMW's and Mercedes and the like from the late 70's and early 80's aren't that common. However, there are still millions of old camaros, firebirds, and other american beaters that may not have even been started in the last 10 years that will suddenly become smog expemt and can be bought dirt cheap. As much as I would like to see what I consider to be 'art cars' or collecter cars (there are even some american cars on my list) continue to be driven around and restored, i think there are a huge number of cars that would be included in that rolling exemtion that would just end up dunping more and more garbage into the air.

Just my 2 cents........

[GTeener]

Glad I got me a '73 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Emission laws didn't go into effect in CA until 1975/76. Hope they don't mandate aftermarket catalytic converters next...

[lapuwali]

Actually, emissions laws went into effect in 1965 in California, and 1968 for the rest of the country. There was a significant decrease in allowed emissions in California for the 1975 model year, which forced nearly all of the manufacturers to install catalytic convertors. A few used thermal reactors instead (including Porsche on the 911), but quickly gave those up as the underhood temps cooked everything in sight in short order.

Your '73 had emissions equipment on it when new (the canister by the fuel tank, for one), just not much. The '75 and '76 914s have lots more, including catalytic convertors.

[wheelo]

Govanator can test my teener....
If and when it fails.....
He replaces with a ....
'99 or newer BOXTER !!!
No charge, new for old ....
He's got the cash.... and
we all win !
If he's a little short...
He can borrow some ...
From Michael Moore ...
Otherwise .....
Go Pass a Budget or...
Something Meaningful ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif)

[Rusty]

I'm definately staying out of the political (party/leaning/etc) side of this thread.

Clean air is something we all want. But targeting classic car owners isn't the way to do it. We're an easy whipping boy for politicians who want to take some symbolic stand, without alienating their big-business supporters.

Crack down on big industrial polluters, standardize gasoline and ban MTBE, stop the sale of smog credits. Get rid of "visual checks" - either a car passes or it doesn't. Let us use upgraded technology to reduce our own emissions. For cars that come it an 50% or less of max pollution output, let's give those owners a break on their registration fees. Give people an incentive to clean up their own vehicles. Give cars that are truly "classic" or "antique" plates with mileage limitations and exempt them from testing altogether.

I applaud your choice to follow your convictions, Fiid. I guess I see it as tilting at windmills, but I admire that you stand up for what you believe in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Rusty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Joe Bob]

Here's the response my State Senator sent me....

Thank you for your e-mail and I am in strong agreement that Assembly Bill
2683 is a bad bill. As Vice Chairman of the Senate Transportation
Committee, I have always opposed all such bills. I voted NO on Assembly
Bill 2683 on June 29th in the Senate Transportation Committee.
Unfortunately, however, the bill passed out of the committee. Be assured
that I will continue to fight against this bill on the Senate Floor.
Take care,
Tom McClintock