914 Alfa conversion Options

[Powaqqatsi]

Hello there I'm new to the forum and I would like to start of with a basic question about the feasibility of my (hopefully) 914-project.
I want to buy a 914 in the coming 1 or 2 months and to fix it up to a reasonable state. And afterwards I want to start on a custom interior including A/C for this machine (and an up-to-date electrical system, I don't trust that old stuff).
The problem is: I'm a student who is on a limited budget (around €11.000/US$13250 can expand to around €14000/US$16875). The original 914 engines seem a bit old for my tastes (gas guzzlers and a tax/insurance problem for a young student like me who lives in Belgium since we have very high taxes and fuel prices) so I would like to be able to exchange the engine and transmission for a newer 1.8 or 1.6 twin spark Alfa Romeo 4-banger (around 144 and 120 bhp respectively). I could use the original VW/Porsche engines but I want this to be my daily driver so I want an engine which is a bit up-to-date and passes car and emission-control here in belgium. And uses less gas and costs me less in tax. More bang for the buck as they say. Now would it be possible to do this ? (these engines come out of an Alfa 145 or 155 which are FWD cars) Would it be possible with my budget (I don't want to invest the entire budget, if it costs less it's better of course) ?

thanks in advance,
powaq

[914Timo]

Welcome powaq !!! It is nice to see more European here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, AFAIK the engines from 145 or 155 Alfas are not so good. I could be wrong, but I think they are inline 4 cylinder engines and mounted perpendicular to the center line of the car. So, it will need a lot of work to make it fit in 914. It would be a lot of easier if the engine is parallel to the centerline of the car.

If I had a suitable 914 for conversion, I would use late model 1.8L engine + transmision combo from Audi A4 or from VW Passat.

[skline]

On top of everything else, Alphas are not known for being problem free engines, I think you should make another choice in engines. Everyone I know with an alpha, only gets to drive it about 25% of the time, the rest of the time it is in the shop being repaired. There is a guy on this board doing an Audi 1.8T conversion, I would rather do that and I dont really care for Audi's either. You need to go with something that has a high availability of parts that are easily obtainable. Here in the US Chevy's are everywhere and parts are cheap. Look for something along those lines over there. I am sure Chevy is not the everywhere you look car. Good luck, check the board here for ideas, its a great resource. And welcome to the board.

[Qarl]

I agree, Alpha engines are no good.

The VW engines can be very reliable.

The 1.8T engine from an Audi is very interesting too.

How about a Subaru boxer engine?

[lapuwali]

Sigh. Alfa's reputation in the US is terrible. This is primarily because Americans are used to Honda-like durability and the ability to endure abuse. They're also not used to 30-year-old Italian electrical systems (which are, frankly, just as reliable as 30-year-old German electrics; they use mostly the same bits). Alfas are, when treated decently, very reliable cars. This is not something you'll get most Americans to believe, because they all know someone who's had a bad experience with them.

I have a great fondness for the Alfa four (I've owned two cars with that engine, and one with the even more fabulous V6). They're light for their power (220lbs for a 2.0L longblock, 150hp in street trim easily done). However, they're very tall, as are most other inline fours with DOHC heads. Assuming you can find someone to make you an adapter to mount the engine to the 914 transaxle (this would be much easier than trying to adapt the Alfa fwd transaxle to the 914), the next problem you'll face is simply getting the engine to fit in the engine bay. There's not a lot of vertical clearance. You'll also have to get pretty creative with an engine mount, and I'd worry about clearance for the very deep sump on these cars.

The V6 might be an easier engine to fit, and the AlfaSud boxer four would be the easiest of all to fit. You might even find it easier adapting the AlfaSud transaxle to the 914, though I can't offer any details. They never officially imported 'Suds to the US, and I've never seen one.

[Powaqqatsi]

I agree, Alpha engines are no good.

The VW engines can be very reliable.

The 1.8T engine from an Audi is very interesting too.

How about a Subaru boxer engine?

The thing is that I need to find an Audi engine for cheap. Those Alfa engines can be had for cheap since second hand Alfa's aren't expensive, but buying a VW or Audi to use as a donor is a quite expensive I think. Unless someone knows a place where you can buy seperate engines (online or not online and in Europe) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How's the mileage on Subaru engines ? It's quite bad isn't it ? (mileage is really a problem to me since I pay ±1,10 euro per litre here) Any recommendations on a subaru engine ?

[skline]

Good suggestion on the Subaru engine, and I would think the gas mileage would be much better than even the Alpha. I have heard good things about the Subaru. That would be the engine of choice in Europe I would think. Do a search on the board for Subaru and see what you come up with. Good luck.

[skline]

Or even better yet, I was out for a drive this morning in my Toyota Camry, it has the 3 liter V6 in it and it flat moves out and gets pretty good mileage. I keep thinking it would make a great motor for a 914. Lots of power and when you get on it, it actually sounds pretty good. Very impressive to drive. I hit 100 on the 405 this morning with out a problem and wasnt even doing 3k on the tach. Are Toyotas abundant over there?

[Chris H.]

Or even better yet, I was out for a drive this morning in my Toyota Camry, it has the 3 liter V6 in it and it flat moves out and gets pretty good mileage. I keep thinking it would make a great motor for a 914. Lots of power and when you get on it, it actually sounds pretty good. Very impressive to drive. I hit 100 on the 405 this morning with out a problem and wasnt even doing 3k on the tach. Are Toyotas abundant over there?

And the motor is almost maintenance free and is good for 250K easy. I was thinking of this one myself... There is an adapter plate available I think.

[thesey914]

The last of the Alfa flat four might be a good bet. I know there are adapters made for this engine to VW Porsche gearboxes. The last one made had twin overhead cams 16 valves and bosch injection. Kinda like Porsche would've made it and its normally aspirated. I think the 2.0 cloverleaf engine is 150hp and it sounds everybit as good as a Subaru.
This speedster rep was alfa powered....can't find the engine pics though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
(IMG:http://www.thesey.net/other/38.jpg)

[Jeroen]

Hey Powaq,

Good to see ya here. You're at the right place for your 914 plans (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Like I told you on the Dutch forum, stick with the 2.0 fourbanger
Spend some money on tricking that out (check the Kit Carlson injection thread)

11K euro's should buy you a VERY good and pristine 914

cheers,

Jeroen

[thesey914]

€11K would get you a six

[neo914-6]

You should investigate the Rover V8 since it is comparable to the Buick 215 V8 and there are conversion kits for it. The problem with these engines in the US is these '60's engines did not survive aluminum corrosion. The Rover V8's were built up to the 80's? and used in Triumphs, Rover, MG's, TVR's.
Good luck!
Felix

[skline]

You should investigate the Rover V8 since it is comparable to the Buick 215 V8 and there are conversion kits for it.  The problem with these engines in the US is these '60's engines did not survive aluminum corrosion.  The Rover V8's were built up to the 80's? and used in Triumphs, Rover, MG's, TVR's.
Good luck!
Felix

When you say its comparable, it is the same engine with very little design change. The 215 Buick engine was sold to the british car maker in the late 60's or early 70's and they have been refining it since. The parts are all interchangeable still to this day. Its a light weight V8 engine with some great potential. However, he is looking for something with good gas mileage, those engines never got that great of mileage. Here in the US the parts are expensive and not that easily obtainable. There is a guy in the midwest that specializes in these engines and charges accordingly. You can either buy them from him or go to the dealer, either way its going to cost you bucks to buy the parts. Not that great of a choice in my opinion.

[neo914-6]

Scott,

I think you missed the point. In EUROPE these engines are more available.

Don't you think an aluminum 215 with FI would get decent gas mileage in a 914?

Plus there is an adapter and people have done this conversion already, less reinventing to do.

Felix

[fiid]

Modern Alfa engines are a different beast. You could probably do it. The original engines aren't particularly thirsty though. The Audi engine (and perhaps gearbox too) might also be a good choice - as are the Subaru motors. The only other thing you might consider it the Mazda rotary motor. These are most of the smaller engines that people are doing. I think the Audi 1.8 T motor would be screaming in a 914, but all these engines put out significantly more than stock, and are probably more efficient.

You are going to have a lot of power. The costs will hit you in ways you will not expect. If you are an engineer-type and have access to a welder, grinder and some cutting/bending stuff - you can piece together an engine motor mount bar quite cheaply, similarly you can buy fairly cheaply ($600ish) the adapter kit for the porsche tranny to the engine of your choice (Kennedy Engineered Products have these - call for info).

The costs will come in unexpected ways. It is likely that you will want to upgrade your brakes and suspension components - then you start to stare up these numbers:
Rear springs and coilover kit: $300
Koni sports (yellows) all around: $700
Mueller needle bearing setup: $800
Front torsion bars: $200-300 or so

Then you have other crap like rotors, ball joints, brake pads, etc.

If you want bigger brakes you will want to either go with the new rotors that Brad is making, or go 5 lug, both ways will likely cost you a similar amount of money.

If you want to rebuild your transmission that could cost you into the $1000s as well. The transmission is the breaking point with adding a lot more power to your car - so if you are going over 200 hp, you will want to either be very gentle with it, or change the transmission, which could eat your budget all by itself.

You should also think about the costs associated with putting a radiator in the car - which is a bit of work - more work will be required to get the heater working again, which you will probably need in your part of the world.

I think you can meet your goals, but you will probably want to try and pick a motor that is not outrageously powerful (the 1.8t might be in that category), and try to avoid going overboard with the upgrades.

The stock wiring is reasonably good, btw, so I would plan on doing a little service work, but not completely replacing it.

[fiid]

I did not know Alfa made a flat four. That sounds awesome.

If I park my subaru in my garage - I have 4 flat-4s in there :-)

CCLINMELIKESFLATFOURS.

[thesey914]

Yeah they made a flat four from the 70's onward. Thats where Twin Dellorto downdraught carbs came from.
I know the AlfaSud, Sprint, 33, early 145+146 used flat fours.
Early cars ran Carbs and then FI -the Spyder used the twincam.

Theres an interesting webpage about putting the alfa flat4 into a 550 spyder replica
Alfa flat4 into 550 spyder


(IMG:http://www.550-spyder.co.uk/Alfa%20engine/alfa_eng_12.jpg)

[SirAndy]

it has the 3 liter V6 in it and it flat moves out and gets pretty good mileage.

unfortunately, in most countries in europe, you pay car taxes by the displacement of your engine.
a 3.0L would cost you a fortune in taxes! that's why all the new european cars have those tiny engines ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

secondly, what you consider a "good" gas-milage here is NOT exactly what europeans would consider good.
30 miles/gallon is NOT a good gas-milage for any european country. gas is MUCH more expensive over there.

1.1 Euro for 1 Liter = 4.16 Euro for 1 US Gallon = $5.12 USD per US Gallon


just keep that in mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

that said, i think a modern 1.8L Audi or VW engine might be the way to go.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Andy

[Powaqqatsi]

it has the 3 liter V6 in it and it flat moves out and gets pretty good mileage.

unfortunately, in most countries in europe, you pay car taxes by the displacement of your engine.
a 3.0L would cost you a fortune in taxes! that's why all the new european cars have those tiny engines ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

secondly, what you consider a "good" gas-milage here is NOT exactly what europeans would consider good.
30 miles/gallon is NOT a good gas-milage for any european country. gas is MUCH more expensive over there.

1.1 Euro for 1 Liter = 4.16 Euro for 1 US Gallon = $5.12 USD per US Gallon


just keep that in mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

that said, i think a modern 1.8L Audi or VW engine might be the way to go.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Andy

Exactly, thanks for explaining that problem. If the taxes and fuel prices weren't a problem like that I would go with a 911 or some other newer car with a bigger engine.

The 1.8T Audi engine sounds a good idea, but only the 150 bhp version, I am not going over 150bhp (taxes and insurance problem again). If I could find a 914/6, could I modify the engine to make it a bit more "modern" and fuel-efficient, or is the only thing I could add a fuel injection system ? I don't think I want to fiddle with things like new cylinder-heads and advanced electronic stuff like engine management (unless these are easy to implement, I know nothing about this stuff).

PS: The 1.7 flat-4 Alfa engine would be ideal but I'm afraid it's a bit of a beast with fuel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
PPS: V8 is NOT an option (for reasons stated above) and I will not go over 2.0 liters of displacement.

thanks for the response already !