My v8 conversion thread, With pics, progress, questions ect!! Options

[Mueller]

Thanks for the cheap shot from the "peanut gallery" Mr. Mueller.
Anyways, all I'm trying to do is let others learn from my mistakes when I listened to bad advice

geesh...someone cannot take a joke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

no need to "defend" me Sammy or Mike, there will always be designers and engineers that'll make the same comments about "everything" and how they shouldn't cost that much....

[Mueller]

amdrew, no big deal.....we'll get over this and laugh about it later on.....no need to get personal, I guess some people don't have a sense of humor.....he was trying to help, I just thought it amusing that he had to throw in his "title", like that was going to make his advise golden (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

he does make a good point however, on the failure potential of the solder-joints

time to move on to the next subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[Andyrew]

Ya, When I first did some of the solders they had leaks. then I went through it again and got em good.

I still need to do a little work with my cooling system...

I have 2 overflow tanks, and no reserve... figure that one out.. lol (gotta put in a reserve tank... when it boils over (not a high enough pressure cap... I think... It boils over once the car is shut off. the engine temp is only at 220.. but the pressure increase yeilds it to spill over into my main overflow tank.. thus I loose water in my system and get air... thus I have to put more water into the system..)

[Mueller]

andyrew,

i have a radiator/water system test kit that you can borrow, you pressurize the system with it by pumping it up....with car off......

[Andyrew]

Sounds interesting!

Currently overheating is not one of my major worries... I know I can always address that..But I am worrying about the engine not having alot of power.. and its wierd noises..

[Mueller]

i'd drain some oil out of it and carefully examine it looking for possible signs of accelerated wear or damage.

[andys]

If you are going to use copper piping, I'd suggest you use a 90 *sweep* rather than a simple 90. It has a much larger radius bend rather than the tight *L* found in common copper 90's. You may have to go to a plumbing supply house (though I've seen 1/2" at HD), but they are available and will really help to reduce pressure drop.

Shock mounting the radiator is a really good way to avoid cracking/leakage issues. For race vehicles, I have always fabricated a U shape with U channel lined with foam weather strip. Slide the radiator in, and it is completely isolated from vibration under even the most severe conditions. I have an AFCO dual pass racing radiator; on their site, they recommend this type of isolation mounting as well. I have done this on mine; as I progress, I will post some pic's in a couple of days of my setup.

I suggest you avoid using puller and pusher fans. I have no direct experience with witnessing problems with this combination, but (as was previously posted) I've read that any small difference in the balance of flow between the two can create a tremendous stall in the air flow.

Shrouding the fans really improves their effectiveness usually because they cannot cover enough of the radiator core area. An unshrouded fan will only cover the area it projects over. You can test first, and shroud as necessary. If you do build a shroud, I'd also suggest some simple flappers that remain closed when the fans are runing while the car is at slow speed or stopped, and open when airflow increases as vehilcle speed increases so as to realize a greater area of air flow. BeCool makes a nice fan and shroud assebly with flappers available from Summit, p/n BCI-75007. BTW, I bought two 12" fans from Zirgo; they have very high CFM ratings, their prices are very good, and you can buy directly from them (Oregon). http://www.zirgo.com/search.lasso?search=fan


I also stumbled arcoss this site http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/02...fan/index.shtml
I'm not sure I believe their estimated 2000CFM from a 12" fan (off a Ford Taurus), but it is an interesting alternative (two fans?).....Although, after checking into on-line junk yard pricing, seems $75 to $150 was the going price. Perhaps you'd fare better at a Pick-and-Pull.

Cheers,
Andy

[neo914-6]

oh....just kidding
9one4racer

Didn't you guys see this? If anything maybe 9one4racer needs to learn how to post smilies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Felix

[nebreitling]

oh....just kidding
9one4racer

Didn't you guys see this? If anything maybe 9one4racer needs to learn how to post smilies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Felix

still comes off as an ass.

Andrew, nice work with all this!

[Brad Roberts]

And if he really knew what was in Mikes kits... he would'nt be making "tongue in cheek" comments. The centerless ground "race" for the bearings to ride on is MUCHO expensive.


B

[Brad Roberts]

look like run of the mill brass

Um.. Brass ?? No. WE make maybe 100$ on the front kit. The rear has less margin. WE are wide open too suggestions on how to make more money on the parts. Feel free to source everything for us. Months where spent finding/locating decent prices and parts for the kits. The rear requires quite a bit of machine work. Factor in all the time spent "hand holding" and we basically make NOTHING on them.

I thought the whole idea was to make money ? Can you let us make a buck ? I'm sure I can figure out a way to build Chrysler products cheaper.


B

[Mueller]

apology accepted and likewise..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

hope you are sitting down...that price does not include installation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

these bearings are not designed to replace the factory rubbing bushings, these are a better alternative to the hard plastic bushings that most people "upgrade" to

no brass at all, the sleeve which goes onto the a-arm is 52100 solid rod, it is bored out, hardened and centerless ground per recommendations from Timken/Torrington..sure I could have used a chromoly sleeve or something else to hold costs down, but I choose not to..I'm not forcing anyone to buy these, too expensive or not to your liking, then pass on by and buy/make something else, no big deal to me

still on the front kit:
the other sleeve which goes into the factory housing is machined from seamless tubing

brass bushings can be had for less than mine ($100 less), but I feel (and do others) that they fill a different segment (do a search for Elephant Racing) I don't talk negative about Chucks parts and I hope he does the same........

no need to remove your posts, it's not the end of the world, you failed to see the humor in my joke, I thought it was kinda funny that someone that could design an engine would have trouble posting a picture, I guess it was more of an inside joke....sorry if my humor is "different" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

how about starting over with your "introduction" with a brand new post/thread and introduce yourself....the GN motor has been discussed a few times in the last few years but as far as I know, you are the first one to have done one....besides, I'd love to pick your brain on engine design being that once my shop is finished, I'm going to start building a 1/4 scale Offenhauser

[Andyrew]

9one4racer

Your a ok in my book! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)
I've seen muellers bearings and everything else he's made... and its alot of work.. He's a great guy,and he's helped me a lot, so I (like many others here) took offense when you cheap shoted his work. You've said what youve needed to say, and now I dont want this to go any farther. Take it privately if at all.


mike, I'll drain a little oil.. good advice.. Heck I'll just change it... ( leave the filter though..) cus Its a rebuilt engine...

all the fan talk..

I have a 16 in fan in there currently... Im sure its somewhere above 2500cfm.. If for some reason I have problems with it overheating, I will take the hood off to see if thats restricting it (doubt it..) then add the second fan in.. then if that doesnt do it, then I'll finish forming my ram air front bumper... ie fiberglass it in so there is no wishy washy air going in between the bumper and the body, so it goes through the front trunk.. If that doesnt work, I'll add some expanding foam to get rid of ALL the tiny air gaps.. AND IF THAT doesnt work, I'll change to marine exhaust hoses, and redo my whole cooling lines.

BUUUUT my problem with overheating IS NOT when its running, but when it gets shut off. When it gets shut off, the temp slowly goes up, maybe to 230 (highest i've seen it) when the car is running, it will max at about 200 so i've seen. while the radiator stays at 190 and casually drops... (I have a temp on the radiator..)



So any leads on that would be helpfull.

Dankie guys..

[lapuwali]

BUUUUT my problem with overheating IS NOT when its running, but when it gets shut off. When it gets shut off, the temp slowly goes up, maybe to 230 (highest i've seen it) when the car is running, it will max at about 200 so i've seen. while the radiator stays at 190 and casually drops... (I have a temp on the radiator..)

This is actually pretty common with all water-cooled cars. The water is no longer circulating, but the heads are still at operating temperature. The heads run considerably hotter than the coolant flowing past it, so when the water stops flowing past it, the heads will heat up the water sitting there. There's no more heat being put into the heads (indeed, the water is drawing out what heat there is), so this actually isn't a problem.

If you ran a cylinder head temp probe under a spark plug, I'd bet you'd see it running at around 250dF while driving, even if the coolant temp is steady at 200dF. Perfectly normal.

Quite awhile ago some engines relied on a convection roll being formed in the cooling system to circulate the water, either in addition to a weak pump, or in place of a pump. Thermo-siphon is the commonly seen term. Such engines often did not show much of a temperature rise after shutoff, since they weren't depending on an engine-driven water pump to circulate the water. Most engines today completely depend on the water pump being there and operating at full flow to keep the coolant moving.

[soloracer]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/Yack.gif)
Just to clear things up:
All I wanted to do from the outset was to give a little friendly advice. <snip>

Just a little side note to Levi. My uncle used to say "If you can't take a joke, don't be a joke!" I always try to be cheerful and can take the occasional "punch to the nose". But we here in Canada don't punch our friends in the nose, literally or figuratively. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I'd just like to say in closing that if this is the way this forum treats
newbies then you guys are probably right and I shouldn't post here anymore. To those of you who are interested, please email me your
questions and I will gladly answer them to the best of my ability.
I do this because of the love of motorsport and Porsches and a genuine belief to help people learn from my mistakes. I will leave my
posts on until the end of the week at which point I will remove them
as per everyone's request.

9one4racer
Dirt is for vegetables. Pavement is for racing!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

P.S. Those smilies are for just you, Jaiderenegade

Guys, I'm sure 9one4racer is good guy. He is Canadian after all. He's just from the eastern part of the country and they're not known to have much of a sense of humour. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

[Andyrew]

James, thats kind of what I thought....

Currently I have to add in a resevor to my system.. because I have no "slack" of extra water.. My fill is directly in line with (the highest point on) the water lines. It is one in to the right, and its just like tacked on.
Works great, till you shut off the system and the pressure builds up and the water escapes and goes into the catch tanks, then it boils if its over 220. (which it will creap up to... after the engine is shut off.. and james, you confirm my thoughts that that is ok.)

Now.. to figure that one out.. gahh... Gona need some more fabricating... GAHHHHH!

never ending process...

Now if I can only figure out why the engine has no power...

[Mueller]

into sourcing and machining your parts. I am just providing your posters with lower cost, better thought-out alternatives. The American dollar goes alot further here in Canada (about 25-35% futher depending on exchange rate) and you guys don't have to pay any duty (just shipping) on automotive parts. From your reply you seem angry that you can't charge people more.

like I posted earlier, there are other alternatives, I've lost a few sales to Chuck with his bronze bushings...some people have said cost was the driving factor, others just liked his design better and some people stick with the plastic since it's an even cheaper solution...I don't get mad or pissed off when they tell me they are buying or using something else....

I do wish I could make them less expensive, but I do this on the side, I can only afford to purchase so much stock and parts at a time. Believe it or not, there is another company selling kits pretty much just like the ones I am selling, and they cost $100 more than mine do....so if anything, I am doing a service by offering a less expensive alternative

feel free to make a better/cheaper/more thought-out alternative...who knows, maybe I'd be willing to buy a set if I feel they are better than what I currently have...to me it's all about evolution and who knows what the next hot ticket will be (air bearings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

andyrew,

it's been a while since I've played with water-cooled cars, have you driven and shut off your dads car to see what the cooling system does??? oh yea, a buddy of a buddy e-mailed me yesterday, he has a ratty 944 turbo he is looking to get about 3500 or so for, I hope to have pictures and details this weekend....supposedly runs strong, but needs cosmetics.

[Andyrew]

Thanks for the feedback and a big thanks to Mike and Andrew.
You have my sincere promise no more negative posts.

Heck dont worry about "negative posts"

Once you get a little more posts under your belt, and show that you actually know what your talking about then we will have no problem accepting your "negative" posts.

Just ask questions before you jump to conclusions (or say your conclusions aloud..) It saves you from getting into messes... Whenever I talk to someone with differing views, I always want to know their side of the story before I shut them down.. Sometimes they have valid info!

Mike, thats a great price.. if all the bla bla bla.. you know... You thinking of getting it? I know you know their potential...
I drive the turbo's and my moms car alot.. The only thing they do is maybe have the fan run for a little.. and the turbo recirculates the water to cool the turbo... but thats it... No boil over bla bla bla... BUT my friends 92 camero is a whole diff story....

[propricer]

Andrew ... is your fan set up to run even after the engine stops ???

[Andyrew]

Andrew ... is your fan set up to run even after the engine stops ???

We're manually turning the fan on/off for now. So we're running it for a short time after the engine is shut off.