914 Engine Choices, Will buy 914, if I can build a monster Options

[GreekDriver]

Hello. I'm a BMW fan, sorry guys. But the 914 has to be one of the funnest cars I've ever driven! Other than its transmission feeling like shifting through oatmeal and damn near impossible to get a smoot shift out of... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (This is on all 914s I've driven, even one with a rebuilt transmission)

Well, there's a nice 914 for sale, with minimal rust, original motor, great interior and paint, and low miles. It's a 76 2.0l I believe, in Black. A fella in the neighborhood has had it since 1979 and barely driven it. He's not a car guy, he bought it because it looked nice. It drives nicely, but it lacks power, and the brakes don't impress me.

It's going to need an engine and rebuilding the type iv to its horrible stock form would just piss me off. Alot. I've been looking at engine options and I have no clue on what to do. I want lightweight, EXTREMELY high revving, past 10k RPMs, and over 190hp. So the V8s are out of the question. I've thought about a 2.0l Carrea motor, as those should be able to rev like hell when built. But I haven't really seen much info on them anywhere. Another Idea I had was an S14 engine from the E30 M3(1988 BMW M3), but I have no clue what transmission I'd use and how I'd get it to work... My last idea was to build an M10 up. The M10 was THE I-4 out of the BMW 2002s, E21s, and some E30s. It loves boost, the 1.5l block was doing 1500hp for BMW F1 in the 80s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I would try to find a way to get it to rev high in N/A form, or boost it. But again, I don't know how I'd get it to work with the 914.

Anyways, just give me some general ideas guys. I'd worry about suspension and brakes later. Oh, and the damn transmission would be going to the yard and I'm going to request to see it crunched, it would make me feel so good.

Thanks! And it's nice to be here! Hopefully I'll get some interesting responses to push me to buy that car.

[lapuwali]

You'll find that no matter what gearbox you use (including the 914 gearbox), it's the linkage that makes all the difference in shifter feel. With a freshly rebuilt and properly adjusted 914 side-shift linkage with something like the Rennshift (see the Vendor's section on this board), you're going to get about best feel possible short of spending megadollars on something like a WEVO 915 setup.

The basic 901 gearbox itself is actually a pretty decent design, and has the big advantage of being very light (about 75lbs). However, they're all old, and rebuilding them properly is quite expensive ($4000). There are a number of alternatives out there (Audi, ZF, 915, 930), but they're all either very experimental or very expensive.

As for the engine, the Subaru flat-four weighs 40lbs less than the stock 914 engine according to a few sources, which makes it considerably lighter than many other engines (the 914 engine is about 275lbs). DOHC, four-valve, and bone-stock turbo 2.5 versions are pushing 300hp. You'll not see 10K rpm with it, but I'm not entirely sure why that would be a requirement.

I've never heard of a "2.0l carrea". Perhaps you mean a Carrera, which covers a lot of ground, but as far as I know never came in 2.0L form (at least not in a street car). The engine out of an '84-'88 911 (the 3.2 Carrera) is most likely the engine you're thinking of, and is a relatively common swap into a 914, along with most of the other air-cooled 911 engines, which range in power from 120hp to over 300hp. They're not especially light engines (early 911 engines being 70-100lbs more than a 914 engine, later ones being heavier still), but they fit the car well and there are lots of parts and knowledge available on fitting them to the 914.

btw, the '76 914 is the heaviest of the series. If you're concerned about light weight, a '70-'72 is a good bit lighter (200-300lbs).

[VegasRacer]

If you want high revs plus hp, what about a Mazda 3 rotor engine?

[rick 918-S]

Stick to BMW's. You don't appear to have any real passion or anyreal knowledge about how and why the cars you say you've driven don't shift correctly. Could be the hand working the lever. 914 don't shift like other cars. Specially BMW's. They have bushings that ware and require service. They all need to have their brakes serviced if they sit too much and the late model smog cars will not impress you if your looking for a neck snapping throttle response. There has been every kind of swap you can think of done to these cars. No insult intended but any conversion, restoration or modification worth doing requires passion.


BTW:

1972 914 with 1980 euro-spec "S" motor 300+ hp

1977 530I L-jet conversion, 5 speed conversion, slammed & tucked
1984 533I
1971 2002 IMSA Style wide body
1976 2002 190 HP franken motor
1995 M3 Daytonaviolett, Borla, 18" Hammans with Toyo Proxies Carbon trim, chip strut bar

[Mueller]

damn Rich, I didn't know you has so many of those darn blocking my way cars in your possesion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

GreekDriver,

do a search on google and the web in general....tons of information on 914's and conversions........adapting the engine to the transmission is usually no big deal, you use an adapter plate and flywheel (search)....as far as I know, no one has done a bmw conversion....i guess you could be the first....have you priced parts for your dream S14 engine or any engine for it to spin up to 10K (not including the rotary)...not cheap at all...a honda engine might be your best best for what you are asking unless you have deep pockets with money to burn

[GreekDriver]

Stick to BMW's. You don't appear to have any real passion or anyreal knowledge about how and why the cars you say you've driven don't shift correctly. Could be the hand working the lever. 914 don't shift like other cars. Specially BMW's. They have bushings that ware and require service. They all need to have their brakes serviced if they sit too much and the late model smog cars will not impress you if your looking for a neck snapping throttle response. There has been every kind of swap you can think of done to these cars. No insult intended but any conversion, restoration or modification worth doing requires passion.


BTW:

1972 914 with 1980 euro-spec "S" motor 300+ hp

1977 530I L-jet conversion, 5 speed conversion, slammed & tucked
1984 533I
1971 2002 IMSA Style wide body
1976 2002 190 HP franken motor
1995 M3 Daytonaviolett, Borla, 18" Hammans with Toyo Proxies Carbon trim, chip strut bar

I can shift just fine, but coming off firm, yet smooth shifting BMWs to 914s that feel like mush is a very very frustrating feeling.

The reason I want a 914 is because it handles great and is a great looking car. I want an extremely rev-happy motor simply because of the sound. I just want it to rev like hell, because driving in open air, with a roaring motor is fun. It's not practical, but driving a 914 isn't practical either...

I should probably stick to my BMWs as a 2002 or an E30 M3 with the kind of money I'd want to invest would shame alot of P-cars. But I think I'm going to be stubborn and buy the 914 and have my fun with it. It seems like a great project car.

And really how am I suppose to have knowledge about those 914s? I'm new to them, but almost every person I've met hates the way they shift, and I don't know why it would be viewed as acceptable. It's going to be one of the first things I fix.

And can't I stick some kind of BMW brakes on to the 914?

My passion is the end result, I do not like the way the 914 comes stock...

[GreekDriver]

damn Rich, I didn't know you has so many of those darn blocking my way cars in your possesion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

GreekDriver,

do a search on google and the web in general....tons of information on 914's and conversions........adapting the engine to the transmission is usually no big deal, you use an adapter plate and flywheel (search)....as far as I know, no one has done a bmw conversion....i guess you could be the first....have you priced parts for your dream S14 engine or any engine for it to spin up to 10K (not including the rotary)...not cheap at all...a honda engine might be your best best for what you are asking unless you have deep pockets with money to burn

I did a search on Google, but the results don't bring up what I need, and I'm a good Googler. I've been looking for hours, and just reading posts on this forum has gotten much further than Google. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I might just forget the high revving idea and through in a turbo charged M10. M10s are really cheap, and produce alot of power reliably. I really wouldn't want to do a Honda Motor, Hondas get enough praise for being great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I'm going to look into that.

The S14 is a dream, it would be extremely expensive, and I'm a bit of a purist with the E30 M3, meaning I wouldn't want to put such a limited engine into a non E30 M3.

I could get the M10 to rev to about 8.5k RPMS under boost and keep it affordable and reliable, while putting out over 220rwhp, so I think I might do that.

[seanery]

As far as brakes go, just make sure the current system is clean and solid and it should stop very well. Get good pads and it's great.

I doubt you'll find any 10k rpm motor for our cars, short of a rotary. You don't need tons of rpms to get a great sound. Listen to any smaller six and it sings!

Remove the smog from the 76 and put a new cam with some bigger jugs and carbs and you'll get a nice, healthy powerplant that may spin to 7k safely.

And shifting a 914 is an artform. It takes finese. It's not like an E30 or E36 at all. Drive a well sorted car before you start your project and it will help guide you to a fun place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[GreekDriver]

You'll find that no matter what gearbox you use (including the 914 gearbox), it's the linkage that makes all the difference in shifter feel. With a freshly rebuilt and properly adjusted 914 side-shift linkage with something like the Rennshift (see the Vendor's section on this board), you're going to get about best feel possible short of spending megadollars on something like a WEVO 915 setup.

The basic 901 gearbox itself is actually a pretty decent design, and has the big advantage of being very light (about 75lbs). However, they're all old, and rebuilding them properly is quite expensive ($4000). There are a number of alternatives out there (Audi, ZF, 915, 930), but they're all either very experimental or very expensive.

As for the engine, the Subaru flat-four weighs 40lbs less than the stock 914 engine according to a few sources, which makes it considerably lighter than many other engines (the 914 engine is about 275lbs). DOHC, four-valve, and bone-stock turbo 2.5 versions are pushing 300hp. You'll not see 10K rpm with it, but I'm not entirely sure why that would be a requirement.

I've never heard of a "2.0l carrea". Perhaps you mean a Carrera, which covers a lot of ground, but as far as I know never came in 2.0L form (at least not in a street car). The engine out of an '84-'88 911 (the 3.2 Carrera) is most likely the engine you're thinking of, and is a relatively common swap into a 914, along with most of the other air-cooled 911 engines, which range in power from 120hp to over 300hp. They're not especially light engines (early 911 engines being 70-100lbs more than a 914 engine, later ones being heavier still), but they fit the car well and there are lots of parts and knowledge available on fitting them to the 914.

btw, the '76 914 is the heaviest of the series. If you're concerned about light weight, a '70-'72 is a good bit lighter (200-300lbs).

Wow, thanks for the advice. The Carrera motor sounds expensive and heavy, so I think that's out of the question.

And if the earlier 914s are that much lighter, I should probably skip this car over!

I'll definetly look at the vendors section, that shift feel really has to be fixed.

Thanks!

[GreekDriver]

As far as brakes go, just make sure the current system is clean and solid and it should stop very well. Get good pads and it's great.

I doubt you'll find any 10k rpm motor for our cars, short of a rotary. You don't need tons of rpms to get a great sound. Listen to any smaller six and it sings!

Remove the smog from the 76 and put a new cam with some bigger jugs and carbs and you'll get a nice, healthy powerplant that may spin to 7k safely.

And shifting a 914 is an artform. It takes finese. It's not like an E30 or E36 at all. Drive a well sorted car before you start your project and it will help guide you to a fun place.  :driving:

I had been driving a 3.0 Z4 the days prior to the 914 test... The Z4 had a salvaged title, but I had a great feel to it. I'm probably spoiled.

Who manufactures good pads for this car?

And is there any software like the BMW ETK software that has these cars mapped? I have software for BMW that has complete schematics. I could settle for a detailed book or repair manual.

[rick 918-S]

Yes you can use BMW calipers. some guy's use modified 320 calipers. they require machining to fit. I'm running a set of 4 piston calipers off a 2002 on my 1972 914. They were a direct bolt on. This is my spin on upgrading the brakes. If you increase the sprung weight by adding a big cast iron V8 and add over size diameter as in taller, wider, and heavier than stock tires and wheels (unsprung weight) you will want to increase the clamping force. If you leave the car stock as in type IV motor, stock type wheels etc. the brakes should be fine as long as they are in proper order.

[lapuwali]

I had been driving a 3.0 Z4 the days prior to the 914 test... The Z4 had a salvaged title, but I had a great feel to it. I'm probably spoiled.

35 years of design does mean something. The 914 brakes are also unpowered, which is something that takes getting used to for people who grew up only driving cars with servos on them.

And is there any software like the BMW ETK software that has these cars mapped? I have software for BMW that has complete schematics. I could settle for a detailed book or repair manual.

Not entirely sure what you're asking here. There are copies of wiring diagrams on this board and elsewhere. The Haynes manual has them, too. If you're asking about engine mapping (as in the fuel injection system), these systems aren't "mapped", as they're not digital. All analog ECUs. 1960s tech, literally.

[DerekKim]

Hey GreekDriver how much does your neighbour want for the 914?

[BatAc]

Greekdriver, I gotta' tell ya' I love the shifting in the 914 (901 tranny)! As far as the high RPM's I don't believe that's necessary. At present when I'm in the car with a lady you already have to shout back 'n' forth do to the beautiful sound. Plus when we get out we have those big grins while our ears are hummin' like we jus' stepped out of a rock concert. Damn it's fun!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

Greekdriver, I gotta' tell ya' I love the shifting in the 914 (901 tranny)! As far as the high RPM's I don't believe that's necessary. At present when I'm in the car with a lady you already have to shout back 'n' forth do to the beautiful sound. Plus when we get out we have those big grins while our ears are hummin' like we jus' stepped out of a rock concert. Damn it's fun!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

whats that you say? cant hear you Hold on, lemme pull over, or go into a higher gear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[SirAndy]

I want an extremely rev-happy motor simply because of the sound.

ok, here's some educational brain-excrement about high-rev-motors ...

unless you're talking about building a real racecar, a engine that revs into the 10k range will not be very useable.
basically, what you do by building such a engine is, simply put, to move the useable power band up into the higher rpm's.
the reason you do this for a race car is, also simply put, the fact that you usually don't run under, let's say 4k rpm on a open track, so power below that threshold is wasted.
thus, you build a motor that revs up to 10k but it won't make *any* power below 5k what-so-ever!

now, suppose you got a motor like that and also suppose you drive the car daily on the road,
do you have any idea what that will do to you while you're sitting in that traffic jam called morning commute?
a motor like that will not be drivable on the street if the car is used as a normal driver.
period.

for mostly street application and AX, you want low end torque. lots of it.
and you ain't gonna get it from a high-rev motor.


as for the sound, just record your girlfriends sewing machine,
pump up the volume by 10x and play it on 45 ...
(wait, they don't make those anymore!)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy

[GreekDriver]

I want an extremely rev-happy motor simply because of the sound.

ok, here's some educational brain-excrement about high-rev-motors ...

unless you're talking about building a real racecar, a engine that revs into the 10k range will not be very useable.
basically, what you do by building such a engine is, simply put, to move the useable power band up into the higher rpm's.
the reason you do this for a race car is, also simply put, the fact that you usually don't run under, let's say 4k rpm on a open track, so power below that threshold is wasted.
thus, you build a motor that revs up to 10k but it won't make *any* power below 5k what-so-ever!

now, suppose you got a motor like that and also suppose you drive the car daily on the road,
do you have any idea what that will do to you while you're sitting in that traffic jam called morning commute?
a motor like that will not be drivable on the street if the car is used as a normal driver.
period.

for mostly street application and AX, you want low end torque. lots of it.
and you ain't gonna get it from a high-rev motor.


as for the sound, just record your girlfriends sewing machine,
pump up the volume by 10x and play it on 45 ...
(wait, they don't make those anymore!)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy

LOL! I know what the advantages of having a peaky, high revving engine are. I'm not new to cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The E30 M3 is gutless bellow 4k RPMS and it needs to be wound to hell to get moving in traffic, and I love that. Except the E30 M3 isn't used by many as a daily driver... And this Porsche wouldn't be used as a daily driver, it would be a weekend/track car. I have this car to cruise the boulevards...

(IMG:http://home.comcast.net/~tspanos560/bimmer.jpg)

The way I see it, if the Honda S2000, a car that can be bought for under 20 grand used can spin at 9,000 RPMS and put out 240hp, why can't a heavily modified BMW or Porsche engine?

I am wanting to build a race car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

I shouldn't have said simply because of the sound, thats part of it though. Who wouldn't want a weekend/track car with a 10k RPM redline.

Lazy people don't like to shift in traffic, I personally have a hell of a time driving around town with a car that needs to rev to get power.

Plus Flat power bands aren't fun. Whats fun is a power zone where your either in it or not. Like on or off.

I'm auto-crossing in another E30 right now. It's cheap, has crappy tires, and its suspension is stock, so it wont cover any of my mistakes. By the time the Porsche is ready, I should be a much better driver.

[morph]

i wonder how well a bmw shifts that was mfg from 70-76. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) you can make the 914 shift very well and smooth as well.but i dont think you will get it as well as a shifter that is pretty much attached to the trans like in a bmw.

[SirAndy]

but i dont think you will get it as well as a shifter that is pretty much attached to the trans like in a bmw.

10 feet of linkage with quite a few directinoal changes ...

i'm actually quite impressed how *well* a 914 shifts if you keep all your bushings in good working order.
all things considered, i think my car shifts great. the only "improvement" i can think of would be one of James's Rennshifters ...

which reminds me, it looks like i'll finally have to funds available to buy one this month!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Andy

[Bleyseng]

Try to find a 3.2L 914 to drive as it should fit most of your requirements. Over 230hp, rvs like crazy and sounds great!
It would also be the most streetable engine I can think of....plus plenty of torque for the track.
This only costs around 10k to convert to without doing the updates to the brakes and suspension.
Buy a finished car and save yourself time and money if the high hp route is your dream.
A turbo rotary would also fit the bill but tons of work to build it right due to all the extra heat from the motor.


Geoff