914 Subaru engine cradle? Options

[IM101]

Hi,
With the cradle in the car, does the axle from the trans make a straight shot across to the hub?
Also, does your cradle use the stock trans mounting points with the 911 style engine mounts?

If so, I am interested in just the cradle since I already have the other misc parts.

Awesome work! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

Nate (Pm me if you want to discuss further)

Hi Nate,
It depends on the transmission that you go with. The 901 is located in stock location, the Subaru transmission axle outputs are positioned a little further forward, about 1.5” difference. This should not cause an issue as a slight angle is usually necessary for proper grease flow.

On your second question Yes the cradle should work perfectly well with the stock 914/911 style engine mounts, however the cradle will include 4 aftermarket mounts. I had to design it to fit both the 901 and the Subaru transmission, using the original 914 mounting points seemed the best solution to me.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) thanks,
Ian M.

[jimkelly]

any concerns with the amount of cantilever or thickness of steel used for engine brackets. i ask because the the small car mount appears much thicker.

[IM101]

any concerns with the amount of cantilever or thickness of steel used for engine brackets. i ask because the the small car mount appears much thicker.

The pictured cradle is a prototype and the mounts have since gone through several revisions, they are now 1/4" with gussets to give lateral support and spread the load. I would bet the reason the small car mount is so thick is that their "cradle" and engine mount is the same piece that spans around 18" unsupported on one side. To make that span possible they had beef it up 3/8" thick.

Just to update, I’m still in process and hit a small snag. The original prototype ended up being a little too low, leaving the header and oil pan vulnerable. Basically it’s looking like to use a Subaru transmission will require some cutting to the rear trunk, not massive amount but a little. The overall height of the Subaru drive train is just too much to fit seamlessly. it could probably be done, it would just require a dry sump oiling set up and a really short header, which increases the cost quite a bit.

How I have it set up now the stock pan/header is tucked up enough to not be an issue, while still maintaining the ability of an NA Subaru>901 to be installed no cuts necessary, if you add a stock location turbo, rear trunk cutting will be required. If a Subaru transmission is chosen cutting of the rear trunk, to clear the slave cylinder and the starter, will be required.

Hopefully that solution will be acceptable; it is the best I could think of within the parameter of making it as universal and as easy to install as possible.

-Ian M.

[falconfp2001]

Can't wait to order one and since no one else has said it, "Dibbs", I'll pre-order one if it helps with your R & D. I'm sure more will want to as well.

I don't want you spending to much money on your own dime for R & D when we all have plans to convert in the near future.

It just makes perfect sense to utilize a more attainable engine with more attainable replacement parts as well. I love the Subi Trans but I can't understand why it cost 500 for a cable shift solution from Cable Shift? The cost can't be that high when there are so many wrecked MR2s. If they would just lower the price then more would convert.

[wingnut86]

Is there any way to mock up the trunk cuts or theoretical bump that will be added to provide clearance for this retrofit? I have an old 72' part whore out back, I can make the cuts and paint some cardboard and mock that part up for images if someone can get me some numbers.

Measure twice, but, I can only cut steel once (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[IM101]

falconfp2001; Thank you, I am doing ok with capital right now (as a college student I may or may not have access to lenders that offer low interest rates and a long payback period… to enable my education of course ). Also I don’t like to accept money until 24-48 hours before shipping, otherwise messy situations can arise.

I completely agree with you on the engine, really the only drawback I see is the cutting that is required but in regards of power, MPG, reliability, aftermarket support, maintenance costs, it’s pretty much a no brainer…

Wingnut86: I don’t have any pictures myself yet, but here is one from DBCooper’s to give you an idea, you may ask him to measure? When I get all the fabrication done I plan on making instructions for conversion for the exact measurements.

[IM101]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Look what just showed up! Super amped to finally get these test axles in from Sway-A-Way, they are Subaru DOJ (inner CV) and 914 or 944 outer, 4340 chromoly, and the signature Sway-A-Way free floating style. All I need to do now is a test fit to make sure they are correct length and I’ll be ready to sell them.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1199.photobucket.com-12367-1337275744.1.jpg)
(fresh out of the box)

[Brett W]

BTW, on our conversion cradle you don't have to cut the trunk. This is using the Suby FWD only transaxle. As for the oil pan. Cut the oil pan down and use wings to make up the capacity. Its common in the off road world. If I can finish a few other things here at the shop I will grab this 2.5RS trans I have and compare it to the FWD trans in my cradle.

[drdave427]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Look what just showed up! Super amped to finally get these test axles in from Sway-A-Way, they are Subaru DOJ (inner CV) and 914 or 944 outer, 4340 chromoly, and the signature Sway-A-Way free floating style. All I need to do now is a test fit to make sure they are correct length and I’ll be ready to sell them.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1199.photobucket.com-12367-1337275744.1.jpg)
(fresh out of the box)

Those are good lookin' axles-- can't wait to see them complete !

[falconfp2001]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Look what just showed up! Super amped to finally get these test axles in from Sway-A-Way, they are Subaru DOJ (inner CV) and 914 or 944 outer, 4340 chromoly, and the signature Sway-A-Way free floating style. All I need to do now is a test fit to make sure they are correct length and I’ll be ready to sell them.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1199.photobucket.com-12367-1337275744.1.jpg)
(fresh out of the box)

I Think http://www.subarugears.com/index_files/Products.html offers the output flanges to adapt to the CV of your choice so you don't have to upgrade your axles. But of course that means the possibility of snapping the axles later. They were only designed for 200 HP not the possibility of 300 HP.

[IM101]

True, however the 500$ (more for exchange rate) flanges, require the use of a 2004 or older transmission (ones with the stubs on the front). Or for 100$ more they sellouts the Subaru adapter to convert the later transmissions to the old style, however you have to open up the transmission to do it, which I know I'm not comfortable doing myself, so extra labor to install.

Where as my custom sway-a-way axles will be 375$ a set, usable with any of the 5mt's and the added bonus of being upgradeable. For example if you started out running an NA ej25 in a narrow body with 4 lug Fuchs and 914 cv's. Later you get bit by the HP bug and upgrade to a turbo ej25, just upgrade to 944 hub/stub/CV and your set.

So basically less money and more versatile..
-Ian M

[strawman]

Why not use modified 911 axle shafts? Dutchman Axles will turn them down for $135/pair to fit Subaru tri-pod joint on the inner side, and they will fit 108mm Porsche 911/930 CVs on the outside. Both are cheap-n-easy to source (Subaru for the former and EMPI/GK/etc for the latter). The 108mm CVs bolt right up to 911 stubs/hubs for a 5-lug conversion, and the setup should be bomb-proof and be way cheaper than the SAW custom axles. See post #179 of Suby-Engined Rustoration for details.

[charliew]

I've been doing other things but just got back to see whats new. It's either here or club narp that there is a long thread about building cable shifters. Also before it's over and done you will probably want the obx lsd so you will be in the tranny anyway to switch the stubs. Also I think the starter and slave cylinder is in slightly different orientations between the push and pull clutch trannys. The turbo tranny in the earlier subys clutch is different from the na trannys clutch, I do know the 05 legacy turbo tranny is like the earlier na trannys with the pivot instead on the shaft. For me the short wide pan and short custom header is the way I will go. Lower center of gravity and more oil capacity. Turbo subys use oil. Still need to change the firewall in the trunk though but mine will look factory thanks to donor trunk parts from Mark Heard. If you ever go to a larger turbo the extra room will help with additional space and for cooling.

Glad to see someone stepping up to make a suby cradle for the masses though.

[BIGKAT_83]

The axles will work fine BUT... be careful Subaru has a lot of different splines on their inboard CV. I've done 4 transaxle now with 3 different splines needed for the Subaru CV joint.

Which joint is the axle cut for? The tripod type with the sealed ball bearings or the older ones with the ball and socket set up.

Also when you get your transaxle pick up the axles if you can get them. If you have to buy the CV joints I think the only way to get them is with the complete axle.


Bob

[Brett W]

Bob, drive that car over here so I can see it running.

[BIGKAT_83]

Brett it is sweet with the EZ30. I even think it faster than the EG33. I'm putting the EG33 in a LE creamsicle I just got.

Enough of this hi jack. Sorry

Bob

[falconfp2001]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Look what just showed up! Super amped to finally get these test axles in from Sway-A-Way, they are Subaru DOJ (inner CV) and 914 or 944 outer, 4340 chromoly, and the signature Sway-A-Way free floating style. All I need to do now is a test fit to make sure they are correct length and I’ll be ready to sell them.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1199.photobucket.com-12367-1337275744.1.jpg)
(fresh out of the box)

Those are good lookin' axles-- can't wait to see them complete !

Wouldn't it be easier for you to use Subarugears.com output shafts? They sell the whole kit to convert to FWD and use it mid engine.

[IM101]

Strawman:
Several reasons I decided not to go in that direction. My goal for this project is to try and make the most universally usable system, while also keeping the costs down for guys on budget builds. While the 911/108mm set up is strong that would force someone to run with that set up only, which would be an unnecessary cost for someone doing an NA/ ej22 or 25, and keeping it narrow body 4 lug. Also some guys have intentionally stayed with 914 CV’s opting for a “lighter fuse” for the drivetrain system. Furthermore the added logistical headache of constantly sourcing the axles from random places, shipping them to me, sending them to Dutchman, picking them up, and sending them off, is just time spent that I could be using for development.
Furthermore I’d be interested as to when you got that price, as more recently 2011 there prices have gone much higher (according to my friends and former employers at Metaltech 4x4, a fab shop had used them for years). Also the lead times for a product would be up in the air, for example last time I tried to get a quote and something that they already had made from them they said it would be 4 weeks for the former and 4+ for the latter. I couldn't just say to a customer, oh they out of stock, SAW say it will be a week more.

On the other hand with the SAW axles I get a set up that I can order and pretty reliably 2 weeks later get 10 sets delivered, that while probably not quite as cheap as re-splining, is less than the flange style, just as strong with and with more applications than both. Also the 108mm CV’s are bomb proof, however with the 944 set up you get 6 CV bolts vs 4 and for proof of their strength I would point you in the direction of Britain’s yellow monster, which has been running the 944 gear with no problems in full race condition, sticky tires, huge HP, for a couple of years now, (though I don’t know if he changed due to the recent lotus upgrade, that guy is nuts! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) But clearly enough strength for pretty much anyone.

Thanks for the question though and your build is amazing btw, awesome fabrication work!
-Ian M

[IM101]

charliew:
I have some good ideas brewing with the cable shifter, just need time to prototype but ill look for that thread, thanks.
I have several different style transmissions, the starter is in the same position, the slave is different, one is on the front lip of the transmission, push style, used pretty much universally except in the early usdm WRX, 2002-2004 which is located on toward the back of the trans behind the clutch fork by about 4”
Either way that shouldn’t make much difference. As to the obx, yes it is a great thing to throw in but some guys with lighter hp and less budget it is an unneeded expense.

Also if you want to go really low center of gravity, get a dry sump set up and I will sell you one of my two prototype cradles (that are too low for normal systems) for cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) it would be insanely low!

Bob: Thanks for the heads up, I did do some testing in that arena before I went ahead on ordering the test axles. I made the Subaru joint 30 spline, which I tested to fit 05-07 wrx DOJ (wich will fit the trannies that need a CV inserted and is the tri bearing style) as well as early 95-2000 leagacy/impreza 5mt DOJ’s (the female style CV, which is ball and socket type). I didn’t get my hands on a 02-04 wrx DOJ but once I had a verified system for both styls of transmissions I went ahead and got the test axle made. I will test the wrx soon, but from what ive seen it looks like impresa/leagacy stuff is the same through the years. On the other hand I know at least a 2000-2002 forester DOJ’s will not work, as they are 29 spline and it can be assumed that all foresters may not work. However this should not be a problem as the DOJ itself is interchangeable through all Subaru years.
You are right Subaru no longer sells just the DOJ, you have to buy the full axle from them, however I don’t think that is necessary as used axles are cheap and the DOJ rarely goes bad. Plus I think 1st Subaru parts or one of the other online retailers for OEM Subaru gear still sells several of the DOJ’s separately.
Also can you drive over here too? I want to see it too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Falonfp2001: yes originally it would have been easier to just use Subaru gears stuff, but my goal was to make it cheaper more accessible/universal for me and the rest of the 914 crowd. Also read post #51 for other reasons.

[IM101]

Guys some new info on the axles, i didnt want to clutter this thread so started another, please feel free to weigh in
here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=185071