D-Jet WAAAAY To Rich, or JOES 2012 HERSHEY EMERGENCY THREAD Options

[jsayre914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Sounds like a dropped valve seat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) . Don't run it till you can confirm as mentioned above. Valve seat is one thing; P&C's are another.
are you running stock push rods or Chromoly?

stock

[76-914]

I asked because Chromoloy are noisy as hell when set @ .006 & .008. Ask me how I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Your engine is fairly new so I assume your heads just got re worked, too. If it ends up that it is a dropped seat, take it back to the head shop that did the work. As long as it wasn't abused or overheating they should work with you on this.

[jsayre914]

I asked because Chromoloy are noisy as hell when set @ .006 & .008. Ask me how I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Your engine is fairly new so I assume your heads just got re worked, too. If it ends up that it is a dropped seat, take it back to the head shop that did the work. As long as it wasn't abused or overheating they should work with you on this.

Will report back to you guys tommorow, if i hear from Tony. Heads came from HAM Inc and they looked flawless, I could not imagine a dropped seat. This engine runs cooler than any CAR I have ever owned

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Dave_Darling]

Like I said, look at where the valve tip (the part the adjuster pushes on) is in relation to other closed valves in that head. Chances are so-so that it's 1/8" to 1/4" closer to the head than the others; if that is the case you have a dropped seat. (BTDT, more than I really care to think about.)

If the tip is the same distance from the head as the rest, then the problem is in the adjuster, the pushrod, the rocker arm (somehow????) the lifter, or the cam.

--DD

[jsayre914]

AND THE ANSWER IS .....................................

[jsayre914]

So, as you can see in the pic, the head of the pushrod sheered off at the cam side. It was riding metal to metal with the tip laying next to it as you can see.

Moral of the story:

"What the hell was aluminum pushrods doing in his engine"
Jake Raby



Chromoly pushrods are on the way, and never ever put aluminum pushrods in a Raby 2056 Engine !!!

[Jake Raby]

AND THE ANSWER IS .....................................

The answer is???

Well after the phone conversation that was just broadcast all over my facility (by mistake) I think I know what happened. I am down stairs working on reconfiguring the engine dyno now, but tonight when I get home I'll share what happened.

Classic examples here folks.. I'll use this one as a poster child.



This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Apr 25 2012, 02:21 PM

[r_towle]

Joe,

What type of lifter is in there, and I strongly suggest you pull that lifter out to take a look a the retainer clip, if there is one.

use a strong magnet

It may have been that the specific push rod was not properly seated in the lifter, but if it was me, I would still pull the lifter out to get a better look.

rich

[76-914]

Joe, I'm too lazy to re-read your build thread but if you haven't bought Raby's entire valve train kit, do it. It's worth it to me every time I bust 6000 rpm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilgrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

So.. Here we go.
Before I jump into this I want to say thank you for helping me illustrate 3 things:
1- Why we ONLY sell these camshafts with all the matching components, because stock components are for stock applications ONLY.
2- Exactly how "haste makes waste" when trying to rush and make it to an event.
3-That even though we try to remove all the variables by "leading the horse to water" we cannot overcome the ability of someone screwing up and reusing OEM components with our valve train kits.

With that said, I can guarantee that this stock pushrod was not seated in the "cup" of the lifter, ultimately catalyzing the failure of the pushrod and possibly creating collateral damage downstream too. Now, why the hell the installer did not notice that the valve adjustment on that one pushrod was out to lunch compared to the others, I do not know... Other than the fact that the installer was out to lunch and not aware that one of these things was not like the other, obviously unaware of his surroundings..

So, the short story is the installer had the full set of our pushrods and screwed up cutting the first one in the set. Since he was on a timeline trying to make it to a freaking event he did not order just one pushrod, instead he installed one stock one... Then he screwed up the installation of it and didn't get it seated properly, which then lead to the failure of the stock pushrod.

Now, what you probably haven't considered is the load that was placed on the remainder of the valve train down stream. I'd expect the crown of the lifter to be FUBAR or the nose of the cam, or both after this occurrence, especially after the ;lifter danced around when the pushrod broke. Any damage on the cam lobe or lifter crown will accelerate wear and will fail in short order- Been there, done that and you better not assume that its "ok". I'd be willing to bet that you have injured something upstream or downstream in the valve train, because I have seen this occur in the past an even valves can become bent from it. If that pushrod was on the cylinder you were sampling CHT on it could be the reason why the engine was running "so cool", because that cylinder wasn't firing effectively and not building any CHT.

In closing:
We supplied the proper matched components but they were not installed. Someone obviously thought that we "make up" the facts associated with these engines, or they think they are smarter or better than the guys that developed it all (us). The entire reason why we do not and will not sell cams and lifters without the sale of a complete kit is because of THIS EXACT SAME CRAP HAPPENING in the past.

I thought that forcing the consumer to buy the proper components would force them to at least install them and keep this crap from happening. Guess not, so I AM DONE caring and done offering. I hope everyone who ever wanted our 9550 or any other camshaft has already bought it, because after this bullshit I am done selling them.

You can't rush success, but you can damn sure rush failure~

Guess what happens next year?? Hershey... and the year after that and the year after that. Kill yourself to make these events, but don't kill the reputation of my product line and your engine in the process. Rushing before events is the major cause of BS engine and car issues, if the damn car isn't ready the week before the event, don't attend the damn event. Its called a sense of urgency and common freakin sense.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Apr 25 2012, 05:34 PM

[r_towle]

Jake,
I do think you may be over reacting.
It was not your fault, a part was installed wrong and life moves on. No one is going to blame you.
Its not about you, its about Joe's motor...


If this is enough to move you out of a business market, sorry to hear that and good luck with the rest of your business.

You dont have control over the installation, so dont sweat it.


To joe,
Pull the lifter out and take high resolution pics of the crown, the cup and if you can, the camshaft lobe in that hole.

the crown may have survived in tact, the cup may have gotten beat up a bit...

You may not be totally doomed...you might have gotten lucky.

rich

[TheCabinetmaker]

So, I won't be able to buy another cam from you for my next build? Sorry to hear that.

[914itis]

I don't see where joe blamed anyone here. Am I missing something?

[VaccaRabite]

No, you aren't.

The guy who built Joe's engine made a mistake, feels pretty shitty about it, and is correcting it. If the cam went flat, I am certain it will be fixed and the engine rebuilt properly. Jake's parts were not to blame, and I don't see anywhere here where any one said that they were.

Zach

[Jake Raby]

I am not over reacting.. I am stating facts so someone else might learn a lesson.
When the unknowing read "Raby 9550" and "failure" that's all the read and they don't realize what happened. The lifter crown requires precision measurement.

I fight people half assing and rushing projects all the time and no one listens.. Now if he loses a cam or lifter after it goes back together he has been warned. You call it over reacting, I call it what's required.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Apr 25 2012, 07:41 PM

[brant]

so this motor needs to be opened...
not the end of the world.

I don't personally feel any thing negative against the Raby product line.

I appreciate the candid explanation, but please don't quit making a GREAT product because of one failure that was assembly related and not product related.

[falconfp2001]

I am not over reacting.. I am stating facts so someone else might learn a lesson.
When the unknowing read "Raby 9550" and "failure" that's all the read and they don't realize what happened. The lifter crown requires precision measurement.

I fight people half assing and rushing projects all the time and no one listens.. Now if he loses a cam or lifter after it goes back together he has been warned. You call it over reacting, I call it what's required.

Wow, I must have missed something because the first time I ever read that this had any relation to a Raby 9550 was when Jake posted it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Although I think Joe should have been a little tactful rather than posting

"What the hell was aluminum pushrods doing in his engine"
Jake Raby
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Joe, Should definitely know better.

Especially if it was a different builder using Jake's products so I think Jake is justified in his post but maybe not so much in removing a product line from the masses.

I'm sure its not going to hurt your bottom line Jake but it would be un-politic to do so because of something mistakenly stated on this board when it can always be retracted or edited out of the thread. Now that you have published your own remarks it will remain here on the board until the thread expires or is removed and further highlighting what you may consider negative publicity for your product line. I personally would have had a similar reaction but I tend to write my reply then after reading I realize, WOW, I just swatted that fly with a sledge hammer damaging everything under the fly as well. I then count to ten and review what I am really upset at.

Some of us are very much idiots but idiots who have no intention of seeking to damage your reputation or your name.

Joe should remove this thread or request it to be removed and starting a new one if he so wishes without statements made to the quality of a product line from a manufacture that was not responsible for his mechanical troubles.

Hmmm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Jake Raby]

It is what it is.. I promised myself the last time that I had a similar issue that the next time it occurred I was done with valve train sales. It took almost two years.

The easiest way to solve the problem is to eliminate the option.. I am so done with retail sales and these types of issues that I might just close the whole store, or sell it. It has been nothing but a hassle for the last 8 years, when we only created engines we NEVER had these issues. Nothing is about the bottom line here.

Anyway, this isn't about me, even though it involves parts that I take great pride in having developed. I can't ensure that every single person is going to have success... I just hope that Joe doesn't waste the rest of the engine from losing a lifter or a lobe. I am going to bed..

[gil914]

What a Prima Donna! I'm so sick of reading these whining diatribes. Take your toys, go home. The sandbox is plenty big enough everyone will survive.

[Prospectfarms]

Forgive the following didactic but I want to comment on something I personally understand.

I'm sorry that Jake Raby is fed up, but I sympathize. Sole proprietors of any business have it rough. I know.

Retail sales adds a quantum of additional stress and heartache to that equation. Aside from the considerable pressure that corporate on-line marketers add to this mix, it already was difficult. No matter how professional and quality oriented, retailers are in the line of fire from both suppliers and customers.

The stress of retail is systemic and I have a feeling Jake's decisions regarding whether or not to sell parts are not based on a single incident, nor would I hold anyone but him responsible for that decision. Given the environment, it's understandable, albeit unfortunate if he decides to give up that part of his "line."

Very few people have a natural affinity to the work of selling to the public; however, it is critical to our well being that they continue. That's why I try to treat individuals who are in the business of selling things important to me with as much sensitivity as I can muster.