First post , First 914-8, Saying hello Options

[aircooledboy]

...but then again, it doesn't usually cost $9+ to rebuild a 914 motor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Don't tell Jake that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chairfall.gif)

[neo914-6]

Welcome Sean! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
If you get to the Bay Area, we have a V8 Porsche group. The body on your car looks well executed. How do you manage water going into the inlets/outlets?
I had a Jensen Healy with the 907 motor and a TC Europa. Nice cars, I'd probably convert your Esprit to a modern 6 or turbo. I'm not sure which tranny you have but that is a major consideration for the V8 conversion at least for those budget oriented.
Felix

[JB 914]

Hey Sean,

Yea, i was talking about Low torque = bad

unless you have beefed up the stock tranny or upgraded to a 915 tranny.

my tranny is stock and it works great. But, i don't use 1st gear and i dont jump on 2nd gear. have not had any problems.

My tranny mount comment was a bit tongue and cheek. the PO of my v8 failed to install them with all the hardware and we had the tranny drop in a parking lot at a recent fun run!! At least there was no damage to the tranny. just scraped up the mufflers a little.

Welcome and keep posting your progress and questions. that's how i learn!

[Sean_S]

Felix,
Both the 914 and the Lotus have the stock trannies (can't remember the number on the Brit car).

Hard to say whether I'll go over 300hp on either...it's nice to fantasize. Even if I did go nuts on a custom build, I'd destroke it enough to keep the torque quite low and get the throttle response to be blink fast. 400HP with 250lbft sounds like a nice motor to me on either car. So many other cool cars make better platforms for cheap dragging fun. Without even having started this car I'm sure to be dissapointed with the rumping exhaust note it is sure to have. This car, and especially with this body style deserve something that screams over 7K and narely vibrates at idle.
On a side note, in town our speed limit is 45 at best and even 20 in some places. Believe it or not, my FJ40 with its built 327 and 4:10 rear will toast most Porsches and Asians between lights or up to that magic 45mph (yes that is supposed to be at least mildly funny). Gotta take the hard top and doors off for those hopped up cars though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I read one...maybe two articles on the 915/930 tranny conversions...
I'm not sure that makes sense to me. Without being knowledgeable I'd sure try to stuff a ZF or Mendeola in there before I spent 10 grand on an upside-down modified turbo transaxle.

Nah, I think these cars will a pampered testiment to my mid life crisis...besides, the fastest car around is almost always gonna be....a motorcycle!

Cheers!
Sean (Ducati....Hmmmmmmm!)

[Jeroen]

Excuse my ignorance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
but what is a FJ40???

[Sean_S]

Joe, stuff falling out the bottom of your car always seems to directly coordinate with plenty of people watching...I feel your pain!

The PO of this car, and now a few different posts I've read mention not using first gear at all. That's a shame in my opinion. I'd be curious to learn about what mod's are available to beef up the stock tranny and especially any that return all 5 speeds to the driver again. I can hear "it costs as much as swapping in a different tranny" coming down the road but I have to ask.

There seems to be a gap tranny options...

You have stock...300hp on 4 gears which does not allow you to drive the car as it is meant to be driven (ie drop the clutch once in awhile).

You have the 915 which can take 500hp (according to Renegade) but has the wrong gearing (is that wrong for a stock 914 or wrong for a 500hp 914?).

Then you have the 930 @ 700hp...which is really no longer a streetable car of any fashion. It couldn't be a driver's car at this point....unless you are a kevlar and halon driver.

Soooo...what is missing is....

The 300-400hp reliable (and hopefully affordable) transaxle which hopefully would be built on the stock case and have correct gearing (stock?) and all 5 speeds. A tranny that will forgive a little abuse...whether accidental or intentional.
I don't know if this exists, but I hope so.

Sean

[Sean_S]

Jeroen, sorry...

An FJ40 is the old Toyota Landcruisers that have a similar wheelbase to a Jeep CJ.


...only mentioned here as a reference to V8 conversions (they comes stock as a straight 6 and are commonly converted).

Sean

[Mueller]

Hi Sean....

stock 914 transmisson has a weak 1st gear due to the design, it is not supported on both sides....it can be used with a V8 with out a doubt, however, people lock out 1st or try not to use it more so as a preventitive measure (stall car, get pissed off and dump the clutch...who knows??)

1st gear is very low, in fact even with a stock /4 motor, once in a while I'll start off in 2nd gear since one is not in 1st gear for very long...with a V8, you don't need the low 1st gear to get rolling, but it would be nice to have for sitting in traffic/getting onto a trailer, etc, etc....drive a stock /4 and you'll see how low is (damn near like driving a big rig, 1st is used just to get the vehicle moving)

If you have a V8 with the RPM range than matches or betters (higher rpm) than a six, the 915 would be perfect, however, most V8's are not high rpm motors...it sounds like you want to build a high RPM motor...I like that idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then you have the 930 @ 700hp...which is really no longer a streetable car of any fashion. It couldn't be a driver's car at this point....unless you are a kevlar and halon driver

...you are totally missing the point of using this transmission..if it can handle 750hp, then using this transmission behind a 400hp or so engine should be worry free...sure it might be overkill, but to some people its piece-of-mind knowing that they can beat the living daylights out of thier car and the transmission should be the last thing to give up the ghost.

[andys]

Sean,

I don't think small block Chevy, 400HP, and 250 lbft are a realistic combination that's easy to attain. If that's where you're headed, then perhaps another type power plant is in your future. OTOH, the 300/300 Chevy with four gears is quite well matched, and allows for good use of wide gear spacing with a relatively high torque low RPM motor package in a light car, IMHO. The 911 turbo employed a similar philosophy (though with higher RPM capacity) with great success.

On my V8 project, I'll be going low torque and a 6 speed at the expense of complexity. It would be much easier to go the standard route, but I just gotta have it my way, and pay!

Andy

[Mueller]

Andy.....he already has a 5.0 (Ford) motor in his car...many ways to up the rpms and lower the torque

not "everyone" uses the stink'n Chevy, LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[neo914-6]

There seems to be a gap tranny options...

This topic has been discussed and argued in depth if you search on this list and pors-chev.com bbs.
The ZF transaxle from Panteras has been used for >500hp power 914s. I rode in one that could be launched from a street light. Since the cost to convert a 915 cost as much as a stronger 930 then the choice is clear. Of course if you can score a deal and do some work yourself, the choice may be different. For <300hp motors, a rebuilt stock 914 transaxle holds up well and is still the most economical to replace. Renegade, HPH, RSH and others modify the stock tranny for taller gearing and strength. You can see an example in Bitchin Tranny
Felix

[andys]

Andy.....he already has a 5.0 (Ford) motor in his car...many ways to up the rpms and lower the torque

not "everyone" uses the damn Chevy, LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mike,

Thanks for the heads up. I thought long and hard about the 5.0 SBF myself. Very nice power package for the 914, light weight, 3.00" stroke, and they're real cheap. Used HO's are everywhere! I'd like to see what Sean did to clear the distributor.....or did he use the Explorer EEC-V with the crank trigger and coil pack? Hey Sean, WE NEED SOME PIC'S!! The Ford EFI is very good, with lot's of performace and tuning knowlege out there. The 345HP FMS crate motor @ $3K brand new is a heck of a deal!

Andy

[neo914-6]

has a 5.0 (Ford) motor in his car...many ways to up the rpms and lower the torque

not "everyone" uses the stink'n Chevy, LOL  

Yeah so where's the Pors-Ford.com or PoRoush.com site? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Felix

[Sean_S]

All good advice.
We are planning the delievery of the car for Friday or Saturday. Until then, I'm shy on custom requested photos.
After that, I'll probably still be a month deciphering the conversion. Remember, I didn't start this conversion, I'll just be finishing it.

Unknown what the distributer arrangement is...possibly crank or cam triggered... I'll know soon.

Sadly I'm not an engine builder and trannies bewilder me. My machine shop with me at the helm consists of making brackets, shaving a few thou' off this or that, fabrication/welding...etc.

I do know that none of the umpteen V8's I've owned would breath well enough, nor have enough RPM for what would make me happy in a little fiberglass car.

For example, I love Panteras and Mangustas (driven both)...the raw torque is a kick, but the Lotus with it's little 210hp N/A 2.0 springs to life with the vengence of a aggrevated wasp. This motor is nothing like the Pantera...the throttle response is absolutely crotch rocketesque (a new word). Yes, you will stall it if you don't hit a couple grand at a light before letting the clutch go, but it continues on winding from mild to wailing...you decide when to shift.

A much different experience indeed, and I like it. For twisties, this lets you hold a gear much longer and has a very long curve between gears as opposed to something that twists the chassis and and breaks loose the tires on shifts.

This is just my personal opinion...on driving. The thoughts derived here are from countless hours considering a V8 Lotus conversion. I wanted to (and still do) want to have a motor I can get minor parts for at Pep Boys, but not turn a a Lotus into a Pantera. The same now holds true for the 914. When the time (and money) comes to do an engine build, I would attempt to increase the bore, shorten the stroke, and use the lightest engine components possible to gain RPM and throttle response.

Of course this is not that unique. Super car builders do it all the time. Ever wonder why a $250,000 super car has 450hp and you can buy a 450hp crate engine for a few grand? This is two engines that will dyno at 450hp but that is where the similarities end.

The trick is not to get more horsepower, the trick is to get the maximum driveable horsepower that the car should have and then make that horsepower an extension of the car and operator. My experience is that this is not often done with V8's, and done even less in conversions since converters are often very HP minded ("mine goes to 11").
However, I don't see why an American V8 cannot be a decent platform for such a motor...at least for an economical compromise that makes a good attempt at it.


By the way, I just sold my Nissan 300zx Twin Turbo... 300hp stock, 400 with minor mod's. The car weighs a bit over 3200 as I recall. That 300hp even in that "heavy" car was darned fast and a pleasure to drive. 300hp in the little 914 must already be bordering on the point where you spend more thought trying to control the car than drive it...so realistically I'm sure I'd be happy with 300hp and probably *less* torque than the 5.0EFI comes with...if I could get that 5.0 to feel and respond more like a Porsche (or other supercar) engine as the tradeoff.

Humble opinions expressed above.

Please forgive me by the way if I accidentally re-hash ideas that have been gone over a zillion times on the board. I know how it is to moderate and I know how it is to be the newbie. I'll probably be doing the newbie thing for awhile here and I know it can be frustrating for the vetrans...again...please forgive.

Sean S

[anderssj]

Excellent photos. Hadn't seen a 5.0 in a 914 before, but it looks like a good fit. What year is it? Is it an HO version? I've got some experience with these, as shown below (I put this 5.0 in wife.gov's Volvo about 9 years ago).

Seeing what it has done for our 3000 lb wagon, I can hardly imagine it in a 914 . . . .

Best,

Steve A-

[neo914-6]

Please forgive me by the way if I accidentally re-hash ideas that have been gone over a zillion times on the board. I know how it is to moderate and I know how it is to be the newbie. I'll probably be doing the newbie thing for awhile here and I know it can be frustrating for the vetrans...again...please forgive.

No forgiveness necessary, the forum is a place to rehash and share ideas. You can post the same question every week and probably get a new and different answer each time. Every single person has a limited amount of experience with their car but the combined knowledge of this forum is immense. I can't wait to learn more from yours...

Felix

[aircooledboy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

Sean,
I think the body of your teener looks awesome, one of the coolest "body kits" I've ever seen.
I can't wait to see fresh pics and to read about you completing the project.
Welcome to the club! Very few of us are purists in the way British car guys are. A 914 is the perfect car for modifications. Post all you want, there are no moderators that will shut you down here. The only caveat is to alert people in the title if you post a topic that is R or X rated. Oh, and no politics or religion!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Sean_S]

Update:

Well all, the car is in the driveway now so I can take photos and answer questions better if anyone still has interest.

All the Best
Sean

[GWN7]

shoot away...we all love to see pictures...post what you find so we all can enjoy them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)