Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS ! Options

[Michelj13]

Would love to get the closed loop idle just a little better.

I don't mind asking for help from someone who knows more than me.

Attached is my msq files and data log taken from posted video. I though it could help me watching the video and also studying the file on megalogviewer at same time.

 2020_12_01_13.37.3rd_video.mlg ( 1.04mb ) Number of downloads: 123


 2020_12_01_13.46.10.after_videos.msq ( 117.71k ) Number of downloads: 113



then I will take it to a dyno to get it all dialed in. Promise to share the video too :-)

[Frank S]

Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.

Take care,
Frank

Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.

Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.

After all, this ain't no Honda Accord... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.

[BeatNavy]

Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.

Take care,
Frank

Hi @Frank S !

Yes, I think you're right. I guess "rock solid" is a somewhat imprecise term. Looking at the tach it looks fairly solid, but then you look at the datalog and you can see some bouncing around. I'm still playing with it, and I just started playing with idle advance settings a few days ago. So many variables and tools at one's disposal with this system. I always appreciate your input as well as others like James and Greg's.

@Michelj13 , thanks for posting those files. I looked them over and re-read your post from the beginning. We have similar setups (I have a Raby 9950), although your injectors are somewhat smaller. In any event, those files have given me some good info and ideas to try. I think I learn more from one good Type 4-specific MS thread here than I do from all the random threads on the Megasquirt forum. I'll post a tune and datalog file here soon as well.

Thanks again, and I apologize as I don't want to hijack your thread.

[Frank S]

I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
Just do that adjustments with the fully warmed up engine.
Good idle is a combination of fueling, ignition timing and th extra air you add.

Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?

You are also loosing sync once within the short log.

Take care,
Frank

[Michelj13]

BeatNavy and Frank S,

Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.

I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.


"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"

I don't know, need to look into that.

"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."

I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?


I will report with my new observations soon.

[JamesM]

I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.

At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.

I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.

With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.

Dont have my tuning laptop in front of me atm, ill take a look at the logs when i do.

[Frank S]

BeatNavy and Frank S,

Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.

I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.


"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"

I don't know, need to look into that.

"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."

I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?


I will report with my new observations soon.

You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.

You must fix the sync los problem!

[BeatNavy]

I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.

At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.

I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.

With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.

Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:

1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @Michelj13 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.

2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?

As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.

Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.

I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end:  2020_12_04_10_Minute_Cruise.mlg ( 1.47mb ) Number of downloads: 89


My current tune:  Good_Idle___Little_Lean_at_Cruise.msq ( 119.42k ) Number of downloads: 89

[Frank S]

I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.

At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.

I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.

With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.

Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:

1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @Michelj13 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.

You need to ask Jake for what idle RPM the cam was designed.
At higher RPM you'll allways get lower MAP reading
If you change IGN timing or fueling you need also to adjust "air" to keep the desired RPM.
Just try something inbetween 1000 and 1050 RPM (just guessing)

2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?

That's fair but you don't need to add or pull so many degrees in timing. When I check your log, you are running between 4 and 6° Advance during idle...

As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.

Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.

You are actually pulling RPM/Air at low temps in your MSQ.

I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end:  2020_12_04_10_Minute_Cruise.mlg ( 1.47mb ) Number of downloads: 89


My current tune:  Good_Idle___Little_Lean_at_Cruise.msq ( 119.42k ) Number of downloads: 89

[Michelj13]

BeatNavy and Frank S,

Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.

I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.


"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"

I don't know, need to look into that.

"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."

I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?


I will report with my new observations soon.

You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.

You must fix the sync los problem!

I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?

Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.

I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.

[VaccaRabite]

On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.

I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.

Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.

Zach

[Michelj13]

VaccaRabite, Well that is very interesting, never thought about that. Will keep that in mind, thanks.

[Frank S]

On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.

I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.

Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.

Zach

Good point, just checked his log again and Sync Los error 0, which is not a problem. However, I don't see this within my installation.

Frank

[Frank S]

BeatNavy and Frank S,

Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.

I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.


"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"

I don't know, need to look into that.

"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."

I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?


I will report with my new observations soon.

You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.

You must fix the sync los problem!

I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?

Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.

I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.

Review your log again. Your idle advance settings are killing you with retarded timing all over the place at low TPS% below 3000 RPM. Why would you retard your timing to
12° ATDC?

Frank

[Michelj13]

That is interesting. Travelling for work, will not get back to it until weekend.

[groot]

So... I have to admit, I don't know much about any of this, but trying to learn... Thanks for posting your files so I can look at some real data.

Something to try.... In the "idle advance settings" try turning off "adaptive"... I know you're trying to get a good idle, but I think that table is driving the strangeness in idle ignition timing.

What I don't understand is why "SPK: Idle Correction Advance" log only shows zero.... so, maybe it's not the problem.... I don't know.

[Michelj13]

My latest video. I will answer any question, all you have to do is ask. Thanks


https://youtu.be/sXMhXcG6sBs

You need to watch until the end where I visit my friend Carlos where he is rebuilding his 914 engine. It's a camshaft not crankshaft as I said in the video.

[913B]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)
Congrats on your MS build. It looks to drive really nice. That 2270 does it run hot? Do you need any additional oil cooling for it? Hope to see it in person someday around Torrance.

If only I can get started on my Microsquirt build. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Best,
Ted

[Michelj13]

Sorry for delay in responding. Been fighting cancer, actually driving myself to radiation therapy in my 914. The highlight of my day!
I get a thumbs up or a nice car comment at least once a week. What else can you drive and get that kind of reaction?

Ted, to answer your question, I am not running an external oil cooler. I worried about that before the build, so I installed oil and head temp gauges to monitor. I think it is not necessary, but, a lot of it depends on your CR. I run about 7.5 to 1.

[913B]

I think that was you, your engine sounded pretty healthy at the intersection of Narborne and Lomita 2 days ago.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)