Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS ! Options

[JamesM]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with everything above.

My VE table is about 25-30 LOWER on almost all values. ie, my idle on the ve is around 22 @ 900rpms. I would recommend highlighting all cells and lowering them all by around 20-25 and then run autotune. As you are right now, you will be pig-rich everywhere which will make it run poorly.

VE values are relative to a bunch of other settings and can vary quite a bit from one car to another depending on how they were setup. Unless it is known that every peice of hardware and setting is 100% identical, just copying someones VE table will not give good results.

[Michelj13]

I am loving all the feedback. Thank you everyone. James, you are correct, I copied some of the tables from others (with earlier versions of code )that were trying to help me along. I cut and pasted parts of two different files (text) the best way I could think of. To be honest, I had not noticed the rpm jump around that jpnovak pointed out. It is obvious now that that is a huge mistake. This is a learning process, and actually, everything about this project is just that. I lot of fun though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Michelj13]

I spent a little time changing my .msq file. Please make any comment you wish. Will be starting the engine again (hopefully) tomorrow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here are my revised AFR, ADV, and VE tables.

[JamesM]

Haven't had time to look over your MSQ yet (still at work) but your RPM bins looks much better now, though it looks like on your fuel table you leaned out the idle and overrun area quite a bit, you were in the 40's and you lowered them to the 20s. If you were running at 40 you might have a hard time getting it to start and idle now.

Like i said before, the VE table is going to be relative to a bunch of other settings as well as the hardware setup, so you need to do what works for your setup, no someone elses.

I didn't ask, and may have overlooked this but, you do have a wideband sensor setup on this car correct?

-James

[jpnovak]

Much better. You will find it much easier to adjust fuel VE values and see a difference now that you have a nice progression on the rpm axis.

I suggest that you start the car with the laptop running. Keep an eye on the AFR. (you do have a wideband O2 sensor connected, don't you.)

Don't be afraid to tune the fuel up and down and see what it does to the engine. Watch the AFR go down when you add fuel. Watch the AFR lean out when you take away fuel. Keep going until the engine stumbles then add fuel back to stabilize it. This is part of the learning process.

You will need to do this process for just about every point on the VE table. OK, not really, the AFR table will drive the VE Analyze Live just fine while you drive. However, the results are only as good as the target value. Each engine runs differently with variations in AFR.

[JamesM]

Also, depending on where you are idleing you will probably need to drop the advance at 1200RPM down to around 10 or below as well. What is going to happen with your current setup is the MS will average the 900 and 1200 RPM value depending on what RPM it is as between those, so say you are idleing at 1000RPM it will have your timming around 12deg which may get you back into that runaway situation where the speed will increase and in turn cause the advance to increase.

If you set both the 900 and 1200 range to the same value then any speed between those 2 RPMs will be locked at whatever advance you set. This will help stabilize your idle quite a bit. I would probably drop both those columns down to 8deg at least.

Your target AFRs up top are pretty rich as well, I would set the max around 12.5

[Mike Bellis]

3700 rpm @ 85% load needs to be smoothed out. If you look at that on a 3D map, it's a big dip in your fuel there. If it runs better at the present setting, raise it slightly and lower the surrounding cells slightly. The ECU will try to average out the cells (automatically as it runs) and stumble on big peaks or dips.

[Michelj13]

I could not wait until tomorrow. I changed the advance to 10 degrees at 900 and 1200 and smoothed out the VE table. It started right up, but was a bit rough. I changed the injector pairing from 1-4, 2-3 to 1-3, 2-4 and idle got a lot smoother.

It got dark and looks like I ran out of gas again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I am starting to get a feel for it, but, the whole concept of VE and how it relates to fuel enrichment is not very clear to me. At idle (1000RPM), MAP was reading 80. and fuel load was 85%. I think VE was 65. Does this make sense?

I tought TS had a logger, but, could not find it.

[Mike Bellis]

As you start to tune, play with only one setting. That way you WILL KNOW if it makes a difference. If you start adjusting too many things, you will loose track of where the actual improvement came from.

Follow the manual's list of things to tweek in order. Save a new file every time your done. Put a date or description of the tweek that worked. I used to save mine like this...
2-6-13 good idle-timing tweek rev1 2pm
I would save 4 or 5 files per day sometimes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I could then go back to a good file when I fuched one up and start over.

[JamesM]

humm... I would think MAP should be a lot lower then 80, though the cam may have a lot to do with that. I just looked up the 9530 and jake states on his site that it is not compatable with ANY injection, stock or aftermarket. I also saw another ports where he recomends not using the 9530 on a 2270. Im not sure what affect this is going to have when tunning, might just make it more fun.

When you get to starting it up again check the AFR at idle try and get it adjusted down to around 12.8 (i have a feeling you are lean) Also maybe double check the actual timing with a timming light again. Let us know the MAP reading once this is done. I would hope to see the MAP reading down to at least 50 if not in the 30s.

Worst case i think if the cam doesent produce good vaccum is that you could switch over to alpha-n fueling. lets not jump there just yet though.

I could not wait until tomorrow. I changed the advance to 10 degrees at 900 and 1200 and smoothed out the VE table. It started right up, but was a bit rough. I changed the injector pairing from 1-4, 2-3 to 1-3, 2-4 and idle got a lot smoother.

It got dark and looks like I ran out of gas again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I am starting to get a feel for it, but, the whole concept of VE and how it relates to fuel enrichment is not very clear to me. At idle (1000RPM), MAP was reading 80. and fuel load was 85%. I think VE was 65. Does this make sense?

I tought TS had a logger, but, could not find it.

[Michelj13]

I just looked up the 9530 and jake states on his site that it is not compatable with ANY injection, stock or aftermarket. I also saw another ports where he recomends not using the 9530 on a 2270.

Interesting. I spoke to Jake personally on a couple of occasion and he was very helpful. We also exchanged emails. He sold me that cam knowing the displacement, stroke, bore, and compression I wanted to achieve (8.3 on all cylinders). I also purchased pistons and other parts from him. It ran ok with carbs except for sluggish mid range. I was hoping FI would correct for this. Hope it does.
In fact, I purchased one of his early customs grinds back in 2005 that had very similar specs to the 9530. I ran this in a 2270 high compression engine. That engine did not idle well, but, over 3k it pulled like crazy to redline and more. Too bad I used poor re-built heads and dropped a seat, but that is another story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

What I have is what I have. We will make the best of it for now.

Engine would not start today. Needed to charge battery. I will let you know about MAP reading at idle once I get going again.

Alpha-n? Who runs in this mode?

[JamesM]

I have read posts on other forums with people using the 9530 with FI just fine, so i am not sure why jake says on his store that it is not FI compatable. Honestly it does not concern me to much as I am pretty sure that if an engine runs, it can be made to run with Megasquirt one way or another, given all the options that are available.

Alpha-N is for use in situations where there is low manifold vaccum, usually ITBs or extreme cams. A guy I work with run Alpha-N on his GTI rally car with ITBs. It does not use the MAP value to calculate fuel but rather throttle position and RPM. I am sure only Jake knows the full specs of the 9530, but from what I am reading it does not seem that extreme, so there may be somthing else out of place here.

Where are you pulling your MAP signal from? When was the last time you did a valve adjustment?

As with everythign Megasquirt related, tons of reading involved. This just touches on it http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MAP_Alpha_N.htm

[Michelj13]

Yes, today was a Big Day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I drove it around the block (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) . It was limping, but, it had enough torque to do it....no stalling either. Yeh me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

After a well deserved (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

I made the realization, that I am truly NOT certain about my measured ignition timing. I have been reading that using a dial type timing light may induce timing errors when used with wasted spark system. (double advance issue). This needs to be sorted, and a number of other small details need to be addressed before I move on further, such as oil breather system, a more elegant throttle hookup, fuel pump re-wiring, and oh yes, vehicle registration and a few other things.

There is still a lot to sort out, tune, understand but I do feel confident that I will get there.

[toon1]

80on your MAP at idle seems real high.

i have the 9550 cam with MSII running a 36-1 trigger wheel and wasted spark (ford ignition) and the MAP is around 56ish at idle.

The map you get at idle is greatly affected by cam overlap.

If you are running rich at idle it will give you a higher map also.

Mt 1.7 seems to like about 13-1 fuel ratio at idle (and kinda all around).

[Michelj13]

Sunday, I had some time to do some tuning. I was able to identify without a doubt that the "0" marking on the fan was indeed TDC. I even put a wooden stick down the #1 plug hole and rotated the engine to make sure piston was at its highest at that point.

Knowing this, I got the engine started, but could not get it to idle at 1000 RPM unless timing was set to +5 degrees as observed at the fan. It did idle nicely with this timing. With a bit of throttle input, the engine speed increased nicely to the maximun ignition advance set to 33 degrees, at which point I could see the 28 timing mark on the fan. I don't know how to explain this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

I am really starting to think, this cam was not the best choice for my engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[JamesM]

Sunday, I had some time to do some tuning. I was able to identify without a doubt that the "0" marking on the fan was indeed TDC. I even put a wooden stick down the #1 plug hole and rotated the engine to make sure piston was at its highest at that point.

Knowing this, I got the engine started, but could not get it to idle at 1000 RPM unless timing was set to +5 degrees as observed at the fan. It did idle nicely with this timing. With a bit of throttle input, the engine speed increased nicely to the maximun ignition advance set to 33 degrees, at which point I could see the 28 timing mark on the fan. I don't know how to explain this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

I am really starting to think, this cam was not the best choice for my engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I am not sure I follow exactly what you are saying, Is the issue that what you are actually seeing on the fan is not matching what MS is showing? If so there should be an adjustment for that though I would have to look it up as i run a different code version and trigger with my setup. If 5deg advance at idle is what you are actually seeing then you should be ok there. I have mine at 8deg but only because that is as low as I can set it with my particular trigger setup.

[Michelj13]

James,

I wish I had a good idle at 5 degrees of advance. I guess I should have said, I need to set 5 degrees of retard to achieve a good idle. Maybe, I AM retarded, but that is what I am observing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[jpnovak]

If you set 5 ATDC timing in TunerStudio (or Megatune), What does the timing read with a timing light? These numbers should match. If not, you need to change the trigger offset value in the software until they match. Do this first before changing advance values in the table.

Also, What does your AFR read? I don't think you have answered the question if you have a wideband sensor. It is very possible that your engine mixture is off and this is why you need such advanced timing.

[Michelj13]

I have a wideband O2 sensor from AEM. At idle, AFR is about 12.5, MAP is 85.

The timing can be adjusted with both trigger offset and advanced in TS ignition advance table. I have been around and around with these. It can get a little confusing especially looking through a mirror at fan markings. Bottom line is, at the fan, I need 5 degrees ATDC to achieve idle when looking at the fan markings.

I know it does not make sense. I will be a few days before I can play some more.

[JamesM]

You need to be absolutely sure that the timing you are setting in megasquirt matches the timming you are actually seeing with your timing light. When you get the time to work on it again here is what I would do.

1.Make sure your fan has all the timming marks so you can see them with a timming light. Just to eliminate variables here you dont want to use an adjustable advance timming light so we will need all the marks.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9.../914_timing.pdf

2. Under the ignition settings there should be an option for "Fixed Advanced", enable this (rather then use table) and set the fixed advance to 7.5 deg. If your car wont start with this setting then you can start it using the table and switched to fixed advanced with it running.

3. Every ignition event *should* occur now at 7.5 deg advance regardless of engine RPM or load. Confirm this with the timming light, you should see the 7.5 deg mark, if not then something is set incorrectly with your ignition setup and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be done. Most likely this will be the trigger angle that needs to be adjusted. Adjust until you are actually seeing the engine fire at the fixed 7.5. This confirms that the advance that MS is sending is the advance you are actually getting. Once this is has been confirmed change the fixed advance setting back to use table.

4. As an extra check that things are advancing properly I will set all bins on the ignition table 3000RPM and above to 27deg advance then check the timming while holding the engine RPMs over 3000, you should see the 27deg mark with the timming light.

This is all just another sanity check but should confirm that what you are seeing on the timming table in MS is what you are actually getting. VERY important to do before trying to tune, otherwise you are just chasing your tail.