Disconnected battery cable and reconnected, now starter wont engage Options

[914itis]

We love happy ending here ! Glad you did it!

This is only the beginning.

[Rand]

Just bypass that stupid relay. It's not supposed to be there anyway.

You should have a battery cable to the starter and a yellow wire. That's it!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
So many people add band aids and it just complicates things and adds multiple extra connections. Simple good clean circuits work. If ever they don't, find out why instead of adding crap. (But beware, that's a flame war waiting to happen.)

[Rand]

It worked! The starter turned and it sparked all to be damned. So this is telling me that the relay is bad, or its just not getting enough power because my red wires from the battery may be too crusty?

Well, it ruled out a hell of a lot of troubleshooting crap for sure.

I think it is either a cracked ignition switch, or a bad connection at all that stupid seatbelt relay junk under your passenger seat. Which by the way, you can eliminate. Just cut all that crap out, join any brown wires (which are grounds) and don't worry about the rest, just make sure they are taped off so they can't touch anything.

The most IMPORTANT key is joining the connections to the starter circuit. Which means join the big yellow wires. THAT is all it needs.

[stugray]

Glad it worked!

The reason some add the relay back at the solenoid is that it reduces the current through your ignition switch.
It also gives the solenoid more "kick" because there is less voltage drop from having to go through all that wire to the steering column & back.

Stu

[Rand]

I know this is an area of debate, but eliminating the extra band aid relay and all the extra connections that go with it cleaned up my system and it's been fine since. Some previous owner added the band aid because he didn't know how to clean up the system and everyone told him to add an extra relay to fix it because that's what people said.

blah blah blah

Just clean up the system you have. Get rid of the stupid extra relay and all the extra connections and extra potential failure points that go with it.

Clean it up, simplify. Clean up what was there, and go with it.

[Rand]

asab

[Tom]

ericoneal,
Glad you found the reason why your car was not starting.
The reason why your car had the relay there is because some previous owner most likely had the dreaded hot-no-start problem many bugs and 914 develop as they age. The starting circuit is a long one with many connections and has a high demand on the battery voltage to initially close the solenoid. It takes close to 8.5 to 9 volts for the starter solenoid to close. Given that these cars are getting older, it is no surprise that more and more have starting issues. Electrical components, wires included, increase resistance over time and especially when heat is applied. Since a large part of the electrical system is in the engine bay, it gets a lot of heat. Resistance in the connections and wire causes voltage drop in the circuit. When it reaches 3-4 volts drop, the solenoid won't operate and you have the dreaded hot-no-start issues.
I would normally agree with leaving the relay out as simple circuits will usually outperform complex circuits, except this circuit was designed about 50-60 years ago and even the factory recognized the problems and VW at least issued a fix with a starter relay kit.
Bottom line, if yours works OK without the relay, leave it out. Your car had the problem in the past so just be aware that when it gets hot out it could reappear.
Tom

[ericoneal]

Thanks, thats very helpful. I will keep an eye on that this summer as I drive this thing more.

ericoneal,
Glad you found the reason why your car was not starting.
The reason why your car had the relay there is because some previous owner most likely had the dreaded hot-no-start problem many bugs and 914 develop as they age. The starting circuit is a long one with many connections and has a high demand on the battery voltage to initially close the solenoid. It takes close to 8.5 to 9 volts for the starter solenoid to close. Given that these cars are getting older, it is no surprise that more and more have starting issues. Electrical components, wires included, increase resistance over time and especially when heat is applied. Since a large part of the electrical system is in the engine bay, it gets a lot of heat. Resistance in the connections and wire causes voltage drop in the circuit. When it reaches 3-4 volts drop, the solenoid won't operate and you have the dreaded hot-no-start issues.
I would normally agree with leaving the relay out as simple circuits will usually outperform complex circuits, except this circuit was designed about 50-60 years ago and even the factory recognized the problems and VW at least issued a fix with a starter relay kit.
Bottom line, if yours works OK without the relay, leave it out. Your car had the problem in the past so just be aware that when it gets hot out it could reappear.
Tom

[ThePaintedMan]

ericoneal,
Glad you found the reason why your car was not starting.
The reason why your car had the relay there is because some previous owner most likely had the dreaded hot-no-start problem many bugs and 914 develop as they age....... Electrical components, wires included, increase resistance over time and especially when heat is applied. Since a large part of the electrical system is in the engine bay, it gets a lot of heat. Resistance in the connections and wire causes voltage drop in the circuit. When it reaches 3-4 volts drop, the solenoid won't operate and you have the dreaded hot-no-start issues.
Tom

Tom,
This is the first time I've seen this explained so well. Could you elaborate on what the best long-term fix is then? Would replacing the starter wiring make a difference? Particularly the yellow one running supplying juice with key-on?

[Tom]

ThePaintedMan,
It would be impractical to replace all of the wires associated with the starter circuit. Cleaning up the connections would be the best bet. Starting at the two larger wires (4.0 size) at the battery, determine which one goes to the key switch at terminal 30. Better yet just replace the 4 connectors on all red wires at the battery positive making sure to cut the wires back to nice clean copper and crimping the new connectors on well. The next connection is at terminal 30 of the key switch, check and replace as necessary. If your car has the under seat relay for the seal belts, check those for corrosion and replace as necessary. A lot of folks just jumper out this relay. The next one is key switch 50, a large yellow wire (4.0 size )that goes to the 14 pin connector at the relay board in the engine bay. FOR SAFETY, DO NOT REMOVE/REPLACE THIS CONNECTOR WITH THE BATTERY CONNECTED! Get the connector aligned 1 pin off and you will put 12 volts from the battery to ground.
You can clean the two relay connectors with small wire brushes and alcohol. Next is the 12 pin connector, then the connector at the starter solenoid. If all of these connections are clean and you still have problems, your key switch may need replacing, that is the one connection you can't see to inspect. If all connections are clean and the starter is known to be good, the relay kit will allow the starting system to work as a last resort.
I feel due to the high current needed by the solenoid for initial closing, this circuit should have been designed with a relay from the factory anyway. Much less stress on the key switch.
Tom