 1971 Gold Metallic Project, The Turbo 1.7 |
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| McMark |
 Jul 3 2013, 09:09 PM
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#141
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914 Freak!  Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None  |
Yeah, I have the phenolic spacers.
Pump, nozzle, hose ordered. |
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| Mike Bellis |
Jul 3 2013, 09:15 PM
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#142
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Resident Electrician Group: Members Posts: 8,346 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Midlothian TX Member No.: 10,496 Region Association: None 
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QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 3 2013, 08:09 PM)  Yeah, I have the phenolic spacers. Pump, nozzle, hose ordered. I have a couple spare flow sensors if you need or want one for your setup. Simple in line fluid hall sensor... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| Chris H. |
Jul 3 2013, 10:29 PM
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#143
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4,049 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Chicago 'burbs Member No.: 73 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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Hate to say it...but...based on the evidence presented...
You CAN turbo a 914... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) |
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| r_towle |
Jul 4 2013, 04:31 AM
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#144
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,670 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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You say you reached the limit, but what is the limit?
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| bulitt |
Jul 4 2013, 05:27 AM
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#145
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Achtzylinder Group: Members Posts: 4,188 Joined: 2-October 11 Member No.: 13,632 Region Association: South East States |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Good point. What are you trying to achieve Mark. What is the intended purpose for this application? You can continue to chase HP, but at what expense. The F1 1.5L engines in the late 80's where hitting 800bhp on rocket fuel, but had no longevity. "Originally the turbo F1 engines from Renault, Ferrari, and BMW were running gasoline, but the rulemakers allowed "rocket fuel" which was actually gelled toluene.You know for damn sure it burnt super slow if it was gelled so it must have had some crazy high octane equivalent. With the new rocket fuel, the other engine manufacturers were already surpassing 800bhp in 1985. This 1.5L BD based 4 cylinder engine with staged turbos was bending crankshafts at 3.0 bar (absolute) boost @ 11,000rpm. Even with a redesigned crank and flywheel the complexity of the turbo setup and transmission was probably a complete clusterfcuk. I'm sure the engine only having 4 cylinders was probably another limitation for increasing power beyond 650bhp reliably. You have to remember that this was 1987 before the time of 3D modeling, FEA, simulations, etc. While Duckworth did redesign the clutch and flywheel to live at that power output, it was clear that it was going to be an uphill battle with a 4 banger. The good old boys in NASCAR back then probably weren't making 650bhp out of their 5.7L small blocks yet and here was the F1 crowd playing with 1.5L engines." ------------------------------------------------ Turbo ecotech's running close to 300hp- " LNF Ecotec LNF in a Pontiac Solstice A turbocharged direct injected (redubbed Spark Ignition Direct Injection) Ecotec was introduced in the 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP and Saturn Sky Red Line. In these applications, the engine is mounted longitudinally. Displacement is 2.0 L—1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)—with a square 86 millimetres (3.4 in) bore and stroke. Compression is 9.2:1 and maximum boost is 1.4 bar (20.0 psi), delivering 260 hp (190 kW) at 5300 rpm and 260 lb·ft (350 N·m) of torque from 2500 to 5250 rpm. Engine redline is at 6300 rpm and premium fuel is recommended. The sodium filled exhaust valves were based on technology developed for the Corvette V8 powertrains. The sodium fuses and becomes a liquid at idle, which improves conductivity and draws heat away from the valve face and valve guide towards the stem to be cooled by the engine oil circulating in this area. The camshaft-driven direct injection systems pressurizes the fuel to 31 bar (450 psi) at idle, and up to 155 bar (2,250 psi) at wide-open throttle. The "Gen II" block is similar to the 2.4 L and also features VVT technology. The Gen II block was developed using data from racing programs and computer simulations. The bore walls and bulkheads were strengthened with a weight increase of 1 kg (2.5 pounds). The coolant jackets were expanded to improve heat transfer, resulting in a coolant capacity increase of 0.5 liters. In December 2008, GM released a Turbo Upgrade Kit for the LNF engine which increases horsepower to 290 hp (220 kW) and torque to up to 340 lb·ft (460 N·m), depending on the model. The kit retails for $650 and includes remapped engine calibration and upgraded MAP sensors. The kit is covered by the cars' existing GM warranties.[3] Unique LNF features[4] include: a twin-scroll turbocharger cam-driven high-pressure gasoline direct injection fuel system dual camshaft continuously variable valve timing sodium-filled stainless steel Inconel exhaust valves low-friction cast aluminum pistons with oil squirters forged steel crankshaft forged steel connecting rods cast stainless steel exhaust manifold" ------------------------------------------------ Slippery slope $$$. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But to the point, are you building a daily driver, putting a kit together, do you want to stop and add water, alcohol, octane boosters? Or if this is a one off then go for it, bigger injectors, bigger turbo, racing fuel? Reliability? HP? Seems to me, by the interest from the community a kit would be well received. Then, a bolt on with zero driver involvement? Or a weekend only package with adding water/alcohol/root beer? Tailored to each buyer? Bolt on with stock internals? Forged? |
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| McMark |
Jul 4 2013, 08:37 AM
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#146
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
Actually, I'm going after education. This project was never about building an engine for my car. In fact, I had a 2270 ready to bolt in and drive, but I chose the turbo 1.7 because it can teach me more. I want to try out the water injection because I'm curious just how large of an effect it can have.
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| monkeyboy |
Jul 4 2013, 08:42 AM
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#147
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 808 Joined: 8-June 08 From: Los Angeles, Ca Member No.: 9,147 Region Association: None |
In that case I really think you need to get it on a dyno ASAP. Measure and quantify each step. I'd be interested in seeing each step and the power curve too.
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| JStroud |
Jul 4 2013, 11:21 AM
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#148
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,463 Joined: 15-January 11 From: Galt, California Member No.: 12,594 Region Association: Northern California |
Mark are you sure you want me to sell the 1.7 in my garage......seems if you keep pushing that one you may need it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif)
Jeff |
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| McMark |
Jul 4 2013, 11:51 AM
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#149
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
But I've got a stack of spares out in the side yard... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) |
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| r_towle |
Jul 4 2013, 02:05 PM
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#150
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,670 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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are you using a multi spark system?
something to decrease the chance of detonation? Does the megasquirt platform support tuning of a multi spark system? Rich |
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| McMark |
Jul 4 2013, 03:10 PM
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#151
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
It's coil-near-plug, but not multispark. AFAIK MegaSquirt doesn't support multispark, but I'm mostly familiar with the MicroSquirt variant.
Multispark mostly helps ignite a mixture that is having trouble igniting. So it helps at low RPM on engines where poor mixture quality may occasional not ignite (low RPM miss). So it won't help with detonation because it's the opposite problem. I don't know if my engine is truly detonating (auto-ignition). It may not be truly uncontrolled ignition. It may just be that the extremely compressed and volatile air charge doesn't need much timing because it will burn so quickly. I still have some more parts to acquire for the water injection system. So I may spend some time trying to truly optimize this setup. Looked up the dyno shop in Napa. $125/hour. This may be the best option (duh). |
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| McMark |
Jul 4 2013, 06:31 PM
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#152
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
Fixed my fuel sender today. Now I'll know when I run out of gas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)
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| McMark |
Jul 9 2013, 09:22 PM
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#153
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)
I get my water injection stuff tomorrow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) |
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| Mike Bellis |
Jul 9 2013, 09:36 PM
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#154
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Resident Electrician Group: Members Posts: 8,346 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Midlothian TX Member No.: 10,496 Region Association: None
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QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 9 2013, 08:22 PM) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) I get my water injection stuff tomorrow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) I should have brought you a gallon of meth on Sunday... |
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| JStroud |
Jul 9 2013, 10:18 PM
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#155
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,463 Joined: 15-January 11 From: Galt, California Member No.: 12,594 Region Association: Northern California |
Just to give a little comparison to the level of power, I drove Marks turbo on Monday when I was there, didn't really open it up, but driving around the neighborhood near Marks house it feels a step above my fresh 2056 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
I'm thinking when he gets it all dialed in it should be at or above a 2270 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) Nice job Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif) Jeff |
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| montoya 73 2.0 |
Jul 10 2013, 01:13 AM
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#156
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Lack of consideration to others, and Selfish! Group: Members Posts: 1,791 Joined: 27-October 04 From: Paso Robles, Ca. Member No.: 3,016 Region Association: Central California |
Nice job Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)
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| Kraftwerk |
Jul 11 2013, 11:53 PM
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#157
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Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 6-September 07 From: Bbbbbrroooklynnn Member No.: 8,085 |
Mark,
I am thinking all the 1.7 Gold cars should be Turbo-ed. So when can I send you my engine? Would love a ride in yours at least! good work ps. Here is another original gold car in CA which needs love/turbo: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-914...f#ht_500wt_1143 |
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| McMark |
Jul 16 2013, 08:24 PM
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#158
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
I got a few pieces for my water injection project. I ordered a FloJet pump that works with water (fuel pumps won't work), has a run-dry safety feature and is self regulating so it only runs if the pressure drops.
 I got the nozzle and pressure hose. The nozzle is sized, so I got the smallest one, and I'll go up if I need to. I hooked it all up on the bench to test and the spray is identical to a patio-mister. I learned from this test that the water keeps spraying quite awhile after the pump turns off. I was originally going to set up the system to power the pump whenever I got boost pressure. But after this test I'm going to order a solenoid valve and keep the pump powered 'full time' and just open the valve under boost. This is where the pressure shutoff on the pump comes in handy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I'm going to run the pump up in the front trunk, just sitting loosely for now. Since the turbo motor isn't going to be in this car permanently I don't want to drill any holes. I also decided to use the washer bottle as my water/meth reservoir. It wasn't doing anything anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I drilled the bottom so I could screw a 1/4" hose barb into the bottom and drilled the cap (it's sealed on a 914/4) to allow air in.  I still need to order the solenoid valve and build the nozzle mount then do all the wiring. |
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| ConeDodger |
Jul 16 2013, 08:45 PM
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#159
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,854 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California
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A thing to watch for on tear down with water injection with aluminum heads is leaching of the combustion chamber metal. This used to happen with Datsun heads that were water injected until we discovered we were destroying the heads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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| Mike Bellis |
Jul 16 2013, 08:52 PM
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#160
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Resident Electrician Group: Members Posts: 8,346 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Midlothian TX Member No.: 10,496 Region Association: None
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