Battery Hooked Up - no smoke - but..., Starter doesn't turn Options

[lsintampa]

75 914/4 2.0

I worked up enough courage to hook power up to the thing.

The instrument cluster is out, as is the dash top, and most of the wiring is just hanging down.

Before I attached the battery, I did a once over to make sure I didn't see any shorts.

Here's what works.... with the ignition on.

Lights pop up and light, highbeams work, hazzards work, blinkers work, some annoying buzzer works (assume it is for the seat belts?), brake lights work, wipers work.... so it seems most things work.

With ignition on - I don't hear the Fuel Pump come on, I assume it should run with ignition on (no tank in the car, yet - getting it sealed again).

When I turn the key to start, I'm expecting the starter to engage, but it doesn't.

Worth mentioning that the car basically is still very disassembled. The FI is not wired up - so I don't know if that effects the starter or not - I wouldn't think so.

There were four red leads all that connect to the positive side of the battery, the long positive cable goes to the starter, and feeds another red wire that goes to the alternator / relay board.

The voltage regulator is new.

I'm not sure why the starter isn't engaging - it's new also, as is the alternator.

Onward through the fog as they say.

Len

[ThePaintedMan]

On my car, it was already disabled, but there was some sort of seatbelt lockout deal, and I think it's function was to prevent the car from being started unless the seatbelts were buckled. I'm sure someone else will chime in to clear that up and/or tell you how to ensure that yours are disabled.

[stugray]

There are details about the seatbelt interlock in here

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...08411&st=20

Stu

[lsintampa]

Looked at the relay that is under the Pass seat.

Yellow to yellow red IS jumped.

Noticed that with the lights on, when I turn the key - lights basically go out.

I need to clean up the connections and make a better contact at the battery before I go any further.

Tomorrow is another day.

[avidfanjpl]

Does your heater fan turn on with the key on, and can you hear it run?

If not, replace the relay on the board that runs the heater fan. Left side bottom, but I would need to look at a relay board. Relays can be grabbed from the headlights, as they both pop up, so both are good.

It is how I got home last Saturday when one relay took a dump on me in 102 degree Bakersfield heat.

A relay in the motor compartment you may ask? Because that same relay runs the fuel pump, if you have the Fuel Injection still installed.

If not, you need someone like The Cap'n or Dave Darling to respond to you.

I am not half as smart as half of them.

The upper halves.

John

[ThePaintedMan]

Len,
I couldn't see in the picture you posted in the other thread. Do you have the transmission ground cable bolted to the underside of the trunk? Is it nice and clean? Same thing with the negative battery cable ground?

Not sure I'm saying this right, but the starter pulls enough amperage that any weak ground will limit the amount of power that the starter receives. If not grounded appropriately it could probably cause the starter to not turn at all. The whole lights going out thing, but no sign of the starter turning sure sounds like this scenario.

[carguy914]

Yes the braided ground from the trans to the rear body is very important!! CLEAN and SNUG

[TheCabinetmaker]

The lights go out when you turn the key to start.

[ThePaintedMan]

The lights go out when you turn the key to start.

Curt, do they do that even if the starter isn't getting juice? I thought they did that because power was being diverted to the starter.

[lsintampa]

Does your heater fan turn on with the key on, and can you hear it run?

If not, replace the relay on the board that runs the heater fan. Left side bottom, but I would need to look at a relay board. Relays can be grabbed from the headlights, as they both pop up, so both are good.

It is how I got home last Saturday when one relay took a dump on me in 102 degree Bakersfield heat.

A relay in the motor compartment you may ask? Because that same relay runs the fuel pump, if you have the Fuel Injection still installed.

If not, you need someone like The Cap'n or Dave Darling to respond to you.

I am not half as smart as half of them.

The upper halves.

John

The heater fan (in the engine bay) does NOT come on with key in on position. Does that fan run all the time, or do you need to turn it on?

The BUZZING with the key on is the new turn signal / flasher relay. Not sure why it is buzzing. It stops when I put the flashers or turn signals on, then it just clicks.

Len

[lsintampa]

Well, I got smoke this time.... UGH

What I did.

1) cleaned up all the positive leads to the battery.
2) replaced the strap ground wire that runs from the tranny to car body.
3) rotated the relays on the relay board.

The wires that fried were the Negative wires on the coil... both the condenser green wire and (in my case) the red tach wire. (I had traced the red wire to the tach port on the relay board, so I'm 90% sure that was the tach wire).

Now I'm not sure how much damage has been done.

Not sure if the wires fried when switch was in the ON position or Start position. I'm fairly sure they went hot when the switch was on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

[ThePaintedMan]

Well, I got smoke this time.... UGH

What I did.

1) cleaned up all the positive leads to the battery.
2) replaced the strap ground wire that runs from the tranny to car body.
3) rotated the relays on the relay board.

The wires that fried were the Negative wires on the coil... both the condenser green wire and (in my case) the red tach wire. (I had traced the red wire to the tach port on the relay board, so I'm 90% sure that was the tach wire).

Now I'm not sure how much damage has been done.

Not sure if the wires fried when switch was in the ON position or Start position. I'm fairly sure they went hot when the switch was on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

I did that before on my car, but luckily it was isolated to just the tach signal wire. It sounds like you've got 12V power hooked up to the coil negative somehow (shouldn't be that way). I'll come over after work and see if we can figure it out. As long as nothing was on very long, hopefully all you'll need to do is splice in a patch wire.

[lsintampa]

Well, I got smoke this time.... UGH

What I did.

1) cleaned up all the positive leads to the battery.
2) replaced the strap ground wire that runs from the tranny to car body.
3) rotated the relays on the relay board.

The wires that fried were the Negative wires on the coil... both the condenser green wire and (in my case) the red tach wire. (I had traced the red wire to the tach port on the relay board, so I'm 90% sure that was the tach wire).

Now I'm not sure how much damage has been done.

Not sure if the wires fried when switch was in the ON position or Start position. I'm fairly sure they went hot when the switch was on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

I did that before on my car, but luckily it was isolated to just the tach signal wire. It sounds like you've got 12V power hooked up to the coil negative somehow (shouldn't be that way). I'll come over after work and see if we can figure it out. As long as nothing was on very long, hopefully all you'll need to do is splice in a patch wire.

George, I always welcome your presence!

I'll be here... Just look for the big puddle of tears....

You have any ETA in mind?

Thanks,

Len

[lsintampa]

Well, I got smoke this time.... UGH

What I did.

1) cleaned up all the positive leads to the battery.
2) replaced the strap ground wire that runs from the tranny to car body.
3) rotated the relays on the relay board.

The wires that fried were the Negative wires on the coil... both the condenser green wire and (in my case) the red tach wire. (I had traced the red wire to the tach port on the relay board, so I'm 90% sure that was the tach wire).

Now I'm not sure how much damage has been done.

Not sure if the wires fried when switch was in the ON position or Start position. I'm fairly sure they went hot when the switch was on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

I did that before on my car, but luckily it was isolated to just the tach signal wire. It sounds like you've got 12V power hooked up to the coil negative somehow (shouldn't be that way). I'll come over after work and see if we can figure it out. As long as nothing was on very long, hopefully all you'll need to do is splice in a patch wire.

George, I always welcome your presence!

I'll be here... Just look for the big puddle of tears....

You have any ETA in mind?

Thanks,

Len

Hey George,

No need to stop by unless you bring a big mop and some towels... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I pulled the ignition harness out, removed the tape and the main coil wire was fried almost half way to the relay board.

I'm going to have to replace / repair the harness first.

Then hope nothing else is cooked.

At least I know now that this harness was repaired in the past. The tach wire was patched and they used a red wire. I had tested the wires before I hooked them up to the coil, so I know I had them correct.

The red/black wire is all black - I don't see it was spliced, but this is the wire that goes to the + side of the coil. Maybe the red trace is hard to see, but it looks like a black wire to me.

Later,

Len

[stugray]

It sounds like you've got 12V power hooked up to the coil negative somehow (shouldn't be that way).

Maybe I am having a brain fart, but doesnt the coil have +12V on the negative whenever the points are open?
I'm not near the car or I would just check it....

Stu

[lsintampa]

Now that I have the ignition harness out and taken apart, I can see where some PO spliced the black / purple tach wire with RED wire.

I ran that wire to Negative along with the condenser wire.

The ONLY wire that ran to the positive side of the coil was the heavier black red wire that would be PIN #7 on the 12-pin connector.

I double checked them.

I think what may have happened is the aux air valve may have shorted out and started a mess in the harness. I'm guessing, but that stupid wire on the bottom of the valve is right against the brace that it bolts to. I think the brace acts as a ground, but if you ask me it's a poor setup (wire wise).

IDK, like I said, I'm guessing.

The big yellow wire had a bare spot up close to the 12-pin connector... maybe just a 1/16th or smaller. I don't think it was near anything.

That aside, the harness obviously was patched before. It's hard to tell what are new burn lines VS old ones that may have been covered up.

I should bite the bullet and buy both from Jeff, but the budget just doesn't allow for that right now.

Perhaps when I cleaned the contacts and rotated the relays around, I hit on something that worked and then it found a short somewhere and man did it smoke up the engine bay.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

[76-914]

If Tom ever starts making his fuse kit again you should buy one. It would give that AAR circuit protection against shorting out. Damn those were a good deal! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[lsintampa]

Well here's where I'm at with this mess.

1) I removed the ignition harness and took off all of the casing. It is pretty obvious that some PO patched it. Hard to say if the fried wires were new or old.

2) Removed the AAR and it has a short. Checked continuity from the red wire to its case and sure enough it is shorted. That would send +12 to the ground of the car when ignition is on. Not sure if that by itself caused the wires close to the coil to fry or not.

3) I cut all of the fried wires off and taped all the ends. I left the big yellow wire for the solenoid alone as well as the backup wires. Hooked them up.

4) Plugged in the modified ignition harness, attached the negative battery line and tested.

Lights work, everything that worked before still is working... now the starter even turns over - so that's all the good news.

My ignition harness and my FI harness are in a bad way.

I need to search the forum to find out how to test the coil (off the car) to see if it is damaged.

I assume the condenser is toast, since I had to scrape the wire off the engine tin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At least the ignition switch and starter circuit is functioning.

[Tom]

You aren't the first one to have an issue with the ignition harness due to the AAR shorting. The fuse that "protects" that circuit as well as the heater blower, fuel pump relay, and rear window defrost circuit is a 25 amp. The wire for the AAR is 0.5mm or about 20 ga. which is rated for about 8 amps. So when it shorts and draws excess current, it melts before that 25 amp fuse will blow. When you reinstall the power to the AAR, include an inline fuse rated at no more than 5 amps.
Your tach wire probably melted because as the AAR wire melted, it melted the tach wire also and shorted it to ground along with the AAR wire. Now the power from the positive side of the coil is feeding thru the coil continuously and damages the tach wire more also. As to why your condenser wire fried, I don't know, unless your points were damaged by the surge in current when the AAR shorted.
Tom

[stugray]

The fuse that "protects" that circuit as well as the heater blower,

I wondered about the hint:

Does your heater fan turn on with the key on, and can you hear it run?

Sometimes you just have to try suggestions even if the poster doesnt have time to tell you why....:-)

Stu