Front Sway Bars Options

[wndsnd]

I'm see prices of $150, 350, and 500+ for new sway bars

Just wondering, once on the car will there be a difference in feel?


I really only want to spend $200.00, want adjustability, and 19mm for road only.

Your opinions please. Make some sense out of this for me.

Thanks
John

[pilothyer]

Night and day difference.........drive one without, then drive one with.........you will agree and see the need for at least a front.

[Trekkor]

Install the largest you can afford.

31mm here.


KT

[shoguneagle]

Trekkor is a racing nut who is having fun!!! You have to determine what your car is how your car is going to be used and then put in at least the front sway bar. The stock sway bar (19mm??) is very good for a road car; racing is something else ranging from 21mm to Trekkor's 31mm and may be then some.

Torsion bars and shocks must be considered.

Back if you run a sway bar, the stock 16mm is good for the road (depends on who's view and experience); racing may use something else.

At least run a front sway bar because it makes the difference "between heaven and hell" in driving, either racing or street.

Enjoy finding out what your usage dictates and build one into your car, then have fun.

Steve Hurt

[wndsnd]

Install the largest you can afford.

31mm here.


KT

Really?
For a road car?
Actually my question was not clear.

Would I feel the difference between a cheap or expensive bar, or is the price all in the ease of adjustments?

John

[Dave_Darling]

The more expensive ones will move more smoothly, and use higher-quality hardware. There will be some difference in feel, and they will be somewhat less likely to have some sort of failure. (Though the cheaper ones don't have a huge failure rate; Rich Herzog blamed the wreck of his Six on a failure of one of those.)

--DD

[Trekkor]

yes, sorry.

For a road only, not tracked or autocrossed, driven at the speed limit car, a stock bar would probably be enough.

If you plan on hammering the back roads like a wild man, which I suggest you don't, get a big bar.

The big bar I added, transformed my car from a swaying questionable ride into a tight, dialed, on rails experience.

I have it turned 1/3 to full stiff. Stock front torsion bars, Koni yellow's, 200# rear springs and stock rear sway bar installed.




KT

[r_towle]

31mm?

Did you go get a piece of pipe from Home Depot?

Rich

[chad newton]

31mm?

Did you go get a piece of pipe from Home Depot?

Rich

Lol.... That's what I was thinking.

[Trekkor]

I wish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Smart Racing Products ( now Jerry Woods Enterprises )
It was About $800 if I recall.




KT

[scott_in_nh]

Hi John, I think I gave you my 2 cents on this when we were on your boat, but I will post here for other comments (if any).

I put a stock front bar on my car last fall and have a rear bar that I have not installed.

Before installation there was a fair amount of body roll and if you lifted mid turn the trailing throttle oversteer was substantial enough to require a noticeable decrease in steering input.

After installation there was substantially less body roll and the trailing throttle oversteer was gone!

It made a huge difference and I was very happy!

Jump forward six months to this past spring when I started autocrossing.

No matter what I did to the tire pressure (Goodyear Eagle GT's great street tire, substandard AX tire), the car plowed and the body lean was substantial!

IMO, for the street the right thing to do at this point would have been to add the rear bar, but this doesn't work for AX as you will unweight the inside rear tire and spin it losing grip coming off of corners.

So I went in search of used 140 lb rear springs, but found 165 lb progressive springs instead. These also ended up needing no helper springs or adjustable perches as they had about the same ride height as the 100 lb springs I removed!

I was afraid of the way they would ride on the rough roads up here, but ended up improving the ride - firm but not harsh! I really like this setup for the street.

On the AX course the car was so much flatter it was like a different car! In fact other drivers noticed the difference and asked what I changed. I could use the throttle to steer and tire pressure could actually be used to fine tune! If anything it has a touch too much oversteer right now that I am going to tune out by adding adjustability to the stock bar and stiffening it up a touch, but it sure is fun to drive this way! With 140 lb springs the stock front bar would probably be about perfect.

So a big bar in the front without stiffening the back will result in an understeering car. I would suggest either stock bars at both ends with the 100 lb springs or the stock bar (or adjustable slightly larger bar) in front with 140-165 lb springs. I would only go to a big bar if I was going to go with 180+ lb springs and I don't think that is what you are looking for.

[wndsnd]

This is what I have.

The front A arms have the tabs

I increased the rear springs to new 100 lb, I believe stock were around 80

New Bilsteins all around.

I have ordered the front reinforcements. I will install these while I decide on a bar.

My gut at this time tells me that a 19 or 22 will do the trick. I would not want to have to increase size at a later date. Want to do this once.

Also, it looks like that bars are just mechanical levers, so why not buy the cheapest bar and install the best drop links for adjustability, wouldn't you still come out ahead in the long run or do you risk a mismatch of parts fitting.

I don't see me putting a rear bar on the car.

Thanks
John

[r_towle]

So, if you are using this as a street car, 19mm is the way to go.

You new shocks will also add stiffness all around, they are gas charged, not oil filled like the OEM shocks and struts.

With 180 lb rear springs, I have a 21mm front bar on full soft for the street.
I have adjustable drop links that only get adjusted for autox, then remain in one position for the street.

Nice part is after many years of playing with my suspension for both street and autox, I marked everything where I happen to like it.

Takes me 30 minutes to do the following for an autox
Drop rear ride height to autox setting
Drop front height
Move swaybar drop links to autox setting
Replace wheels and tires with autox setup.


So, my advice would be get a small bar that is adjustable.
I would absolutely advise you to get a front bar, no matter what you are doing.
Car does not perform correctly without at least a front bar, even the stock one works.

Used stock bars are in the classifieds, and many upgrade to larger bars, so you should be able to find one somewhere.

Rich

[SLITS]

The 914 was 13 or 15 mm. I don't remember which as I gave it away. Bruce Stone can measure it for you plus it is stamped into one end.

I have a stock bar on the front of my six conversion (2.7L) with 140 lb rear springs, Bilsteins w/ adjustable perches on the rear and Koni Reds up front (911 struts). It corners nicely.

I do have a 19 mm bar (911 front) that I will replace the stock one with someday. I also have a rear bar and have not installed it ... maybe some day.

Car is not tracked.

The best setup I ever put on a 914 was an SC front end complete with under body sway bar. Even though it was 22 or so mm, the way it is attached there is not as much deflection so the full rate is not realized. Flat as could be in the twisties.

No need for adjustable drop links on a street car other than making sure the bar is not preloaded in rest position. Just a costly, unnecessary option.

It's a torsion bar and the rate is determined by the diameter of the bar, length of the arms.

Most importantly, the bar is most effective when it is horizontal to the ground plane and the arms are vertical and equal (bar not preloaded). Most effective place to tie in the drop links is at the ball joint for maximum available deflection with suspension movement, but that generally doesn't happen except on full race cars.

Being able to adjust the arm length and keeping the drop links in a vertical plane is most effective, i.e., longer the arm for a given bar diameter, more torsional resistance.

On the race cars, we had multiple attachment points on the arm and commensurate attachment points on the "A" arm so that the arm could be lengthened while keeping the drop links vertical.

We had a rear bar set up in the same manner. On some tracks it was used and on others, we disconnected it. And yes, we used Detroit Locker rear ends.

I'm done!

[ChrisFoley]

The most economical choice is a 19mm basic Weltmeister kit.
It won't have adjustable drop links but (as long as the car is well aligned) you won't notice the need for them unless you're setting up the car for competition.

Differences between products which affect price/quality include: materials (fabricated steel vs cnc machined aluminum), attachment of the arms to the bar(square is the easiest to make but worst for long life/precision, splined is the highest precision/most expensive to mfr), drop link design/attachment, bushing material & mount design, bling anodizing, ease of adjustment, plain drop link bushings vs heim rods, etc.

[wndsnd]

The most economical choice is a 19mm basic Weltmeister kit.
It won't have adjustable drop links but (as long as the car is well aligned) you won't notice the need for them unless you're setting up the car for competition.

Differences between products which affect price/quality include: materials (fabricated steel vs cnc machined aluminum), attachment of the arms to the bar(square is the easiest to make but worst for long life/precision, splined is the highest precision/most expensive to mfr), drop link design/attachment, bushing material & mount design, bling anodizing, ease of adjustment, plain drop link bushings vs heim rods, etc.

Thanks Chris,

Struggling with the Brand, quality, price, thing. Everyone agrees on the front bar, no-one ever talks about features, benefits of the various brands.

Ordered your bar reinforcements this morning. I will get them in. I have been cleaning the garage so I can start work on the car again, I gave it a rest for the summer.

[ChrisFoley]

Everyone agrees on the front bar, no-one ever talks about features, benefits of the various brands.

I've dealt with just about every brand available.
Stock 914 (early 911)
911 SC & Carrera Underbody
Weltmeister (+ available upgrades)
Tarrett
Smart Racing
TRG
Tangerine

Each has its advantages/disadvantages and each has its best purpose (although I think TRG and Smart Racing are roughly equivalent).

Weltmeister is the entry level adjustable setup.

[sixnotfour]

don't forget the old H&H sway bars

[gandalf_025]

Hey John:
Good to see you are working on the car again..

I put a set of H&H bars on my car back in the mid 70's.
I was able to drive to the house of the owner of H&H
and pick them up at his front door. I bought the 19mm
front and was back in a couple of weeks to buy a 16mm rear bar.

[wndsnd]

Hey John:
Good to see you are working on the car again..

I put a set of H&H bars on my car back in the mid 70's.
I was able to drive to the house of the owner of H&H
and pick them up at his front door. I bought the 19mm
front and was back in a couple of weeks to buy a 16mm rear bar.

One of the last good days for the boat Al, Call me if you and Sue want to go out for a couple hours or so....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)


978-270-4554