2056 Valvetrain question Options

[flipb]

Let me preface: I'm not a mechanic and I've never built an engine, so what I'm sharing below is secondhand from my engine builder...

We are in the midst of building my stock 2.0 into a 2056. I purchased 96mm Pistons & Cylinders from European Motorworks, along with new valves, cam, and various other hardware... EMW also cleaned/refurbished the heads and rods.

My engine builder here in Virginia is a little bewildered by some of what EMW sold me. Specifically, he says that the alignment of the rockers & valves "sucks". The valve adjustment screw has to be turned all the way in, buried in the rocker, and it still looks like there will be severe wear. He suggested we might have the wrong lifters or need longer pushrods. Or there might be an alternative to use rockers from a 1.7 and/or something off a 911 with a ball & socket joint.

I'm going to post the full invoice of what I bought from EMW -- perhaps someone can help me understand the issue, either from the notes above or by reviewing the parts list.

Does this make sense or sound familiar to anyone? What's the right fix? I'm stuck in the middle of trying to get resolution from EMW for an issue I don't fully understand, but I want to see if anyone here might quickly spot the problem.

[malcolm2]

So you did not get new rockers assemblies, adjustment screws or push rods? Shouldn't you?

sorry your not doing it, cause if you took some pictures it may help.

[TheCabinetmaker]

The new cam has changed your valve train geometry.You need 1.7 rocker arms and 911 swivel feet adjusters (genuine Porsche only). You also need to determine the length of your new pushrods. I'm surprised your engine builder did not know this.

[Java2570]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) what Curt said.....

[flipb]

The new cam has changed your valve train geometry.You need 1.7 rocker arms and 911 swivel feet adjusters (genuine Porsche only). You also need to determine the length of your new pushrods. I'm surprised your engine builder did not know this.

Thank you!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Exactly what I was looking for. My builder does lots of 6 cyl rebuilds; not so many Type IV's. I'm surprised EMW didn't recommend these items.

Anyone want to make my day really easy by posting the part numbers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheCabinetmaker]

Use the chromoly pushrods. Then your valve clearance is set to 0 lash.
No more feeler gauges

[VaccaRabite]

Yep. Cabinetmaker nailed it.
EMW did not do it without you asking for it as the cost is vastly different.
Part 054-624 (911 adjusters) are $17 a pop. But you need them.

The 1.7 rockers you may need to source. I don't seem them on the EMW website.
You may also need new rocker studs.

Your best bet is to just call EMW, talk with one of their techs on the phone and have them help you gather the stuff you need. They are excellent.

And, again, get the chromo push rods too.

Zach

[stugray]

The new cam has changed your valve train geometry.

That may be true, but the description from the OP is that even with the valve completely closed, the rockers should have plenty of clearance.

Something is wrong. Is the pushrod caught in the lifter and not down in the cup?

[VaccaRabite]

Also, since you are upgrading valve train....
I did not see that you had jumped for the solid spacer kit for your rocker arms. When you call EMW ask about it. Its NICE.

Zach

[VaccaRabite]

The new cam has changed your valve train geometry.

That may be true, but the description from the OP is that even with the valve completely closed, the rockers should have plenty of clearance.

Something is wrong. Is the pushrod caught in the lifter and not down in the cup?

There is something wrong.
The builder is using a non-stock cam and trying to use stock pushrods. The geometry is all off.

Zach

[bobhasissues]

I agree with Stugray.
Either the stock pushrods are not fully seated in the lifters and/or rockers, or the base circle of the new cam is way larger that the cam it is replacing.
Stock 2.0 rockers and adjusters should easily fit right in there, and setting proper geometry only requires some shimming at the base of the rocker shafts.
1.7 rockers, 911 adjusters and chromolly pushrods are not a requirement of cam replacement, but it is the preferential way to go since the 911 adjusters, if set up properly, will greatly reduce wear on the valve tip and valve guides.
Ask your builder to call Jorge at EMW, he's a good guy and will help him troubleshoot whatever is going wrong there.

[malcolm2]

I found this picture in a recent post. You see the "foot" of the adjuster. A tiny elephant foot looking thing. It swivels, hence the name. That is the 911 adjuster. Some people swear by it, some don't. You need the 1.7 rocker, cause that thread diameter is the same as the 911.... slightly bigger than the 914.

Can't really see, but it has a solid spacer between the 2 rockers. Another upgrade from a flimsy spring. He is measuring the geometry on the far valve. IIRC when the spring is down half way, the adjuster should be parallel to the valve it is pushing. The foot is not centered, but the center axis of the valve is parallel to the center axis of the adjuster. I am no expert, but I did it about 18 months ago.

Are you saying that your adjuster is screwed all the way to the screw driver slot?

[ChrisFoley]

Specifically, he says that the alignment of the rockers & valves "sucks".

It's the engine builder's job to correct that.
If he had experience building modified T4 engines he would already know what to do.

[Jake Raby]

This builder sounds like an "assembler".

He'll find a several thousand word article all about valve train geometry on my forums. He needs to read it, and you should as well.

[r_towle]

This builder sounds like an "assembler".

He'll find a several thousand word article all about valve train geometry on my forums. He needs to read it, and you should as well.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[flipb]

One more quick question:

At some point during disassembly, shipping the heads out to EMW for cleaning and refurbishing, shipping back to VA... The aluminum oil breather nipple for one of the heads got lost. (The other stayed lodged in the hose, pulled loose from the head during disassembly.)

What's the source for these? Are they a standard VW part, i.e. easy to find?

Thanks.

[Dave_Darling]

Find a piece of tubing of the appropriate size, and jam it into the hole.

Or, drill and tap for a barbed hose fitting. I had that done on my car by the shop that rebuilt the heads.

--DD

[stugray]

Either the stock pushrods are not fully seated in the lifters and/or rockers, or the base circle of the new cam is way larger that the cam it is replacing.
Stock 2.0 rockers and adjusters should easily fit right in there, and setting proper geometry only requires some shimming at the base of the rocker shafts.

That is exactly what I was thinking. You should not have geometry issues until you start opening valves.

So as Bob said, the base circle of the new cam must be larger than the old cam for this to happen.
Did you bother to measure the new cam before you put it in?

The base circle diameter should be the same. If the old cam was a reground cam and the PO put longer pushrods in then that could cause this.

And while Jake's geometry adjusment is definitely a good read and required to get this right (in the end), you need to be able to spin the engine around all the way before you can even measure anything.

[worn]

My engine builder here in Virginia is a little bewildered by some of what EMW sold me. Specifically, he says that the alignment of the rockers & valves "sucks". The valve adjustment screw has to be turned all the way in, buried in the rocker, and it still looks like there will be severe wear. He suggested we might have the wrong lifters or need longer pushrods. Or there might be an alternative to use rockers from a 1.7 and/or something off a 911 with a ball & socket joint.

You aren't going to like the cost of the 911 elephants' feet, but they are nice. They won't help your problem. Don't bother with the cheap VW bug versions. Waste of money that you will see when you open the package.

If the adjusters are as you describe, the pedestals are too high, or the pushrods too short or the cam and tappet length is too short. I think it wise to replace the tappets with the cam so they are matched. But I am still a bit surprised that they would sell you something that doesn't match stock. I seem to remember that the normal length is around 27 cm.


It is easy to make an adjustable pushrod out of an old one by putting a stud in the middle so it screws like a turnbuckle. That way you can experiment to find what you need. I also like the chrome moly.


The overhead cams of the 6 cylinder cars bear no relationship to these pushrod engines, so the builder may have some reading to do.

[stugray]

If the adjusters are as you describe, the pedestals are too high, or the pushrods too short or the cam and tappet length is too short.

Dont you mean: pedestals to low, pushrods too long, or tappet length too long?