 recent Sebring Abuse, Oil system help |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
 Dec 17 2013, 10:32 AM
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#1
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Senior Member  Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States  |
Hey Everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Here's what I'm running 2258cc 10.5 to 1 compression 40 webers 494 web cam type 1 oil pump mocal oil cooler 25 row mocal sandwich w/thermostat adapter accusump 2 quart Brad Penn Air-cooled oil 15-50 (5 1/2 quarts) Let me explain my set-up The oil cooler is a rear mount under the car on the passenger side rear. I made some duct work and its almost vertical to catch the most air as possible. Track conditions Sunny, low 80s, 30min sessions question 1) With that cooler I didn't expect to run in the 230f oil temps. Is 230f acceptable? question 2) I also have some oil on the top of the case /engine tin pooling. 1-2 side. It only happens under WOT. Any ideas? question 3) I never set-up an accusump and I don't like it so far. It over fills the case at shut-off. Do I have to much air in it (9lbs)? Other then my oil questions, I had a great time. Ran a 2:51. My new best time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) |
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| brant |
Dec 17 2013, 10:41 AM
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#2
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,831 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains 
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you really need a front cooler to improve efficiency on the track
I know Chris at Tangerine and others have wonderful rear cooler systems that work... I'm not taking anything away from them but frontal air is going to be more efficient and I have always found front coolers to be more effective (I did put a rear cooler into one car, and was never pleased with it's results) regarding the accusump... I assume you have a shut off valve? you have to contain the oil into the sump for shut off without the valve the over-full condition blows valve cover gaskets possibly the source of your oil pooling too. brant |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Dec 17 2013, 10:57 AM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
I didn't like the idea of running the oil lines all the way up there in fear of the oil pressure falling off to much.
Also worried about creating lift with the bottom exit of air. I'm I stressed about nothing? The accusump is a mystery to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) I pull in to the pits, car is at idle and I shut off the accusump. It seems to me that the oil viscosity is thinner at temperature and won't travel back up the pump? Once the oil temp has dropped to 160ish I can fill it back up. I just don't like all that oil sitting in the crankcase. |
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| brant |
Dec 17 2013, 11:32 AM
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#4
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,831 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains
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Back when we ran an accusump. We used to close the valve on the cool down lap by reving the motor under load to redline. (Building the most oil pressure possible with a hot engine)
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| ThePaintedMan |
Dec 17 2013, 07:15 PM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,886 Joined: 6-September 11 From: St. Petersburg, FL Member No.: 13,527 Region Association: South East States
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Hey Shane,
I don't know much about Accusumps, but I have an idea about your oil pooling. Do you have head vents and a breather box? If so, check the connection from the hose at the head. FourBlades has vented heads and he popped one of the hoses off, spewing oil all over the place when we were at Sebring. Mostly at WOT though. |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Dec 17 2013, 08:14 PM
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#6
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(brant @ Dec 17 2013, 09:32 AM)  Back when we ran an accusump. We used to close the valve on the cool down lap by reving the motor under load to redline. (Building the most oil pressure possible with a hot engine) I was thinking the same thing. Kinda wish I didn't install it. Thanks |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Dec 17 2013, 08:15 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(ThePaintedMan @ Dec 17 2013, 05:15 PM) Hey Shane, I don't know much about Accusumps, but I have an idea about your oil pooling. Do you have head vents and a breather box? If so, check the connection from the hose at the head. FourBlades has vented heads and he popped one of the hoses off, spewing oil all over the place when we were at Sebring. Mostly at WOT though. I think its coming out of the dipstick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) |
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| brant |
Dec 17 2013, 09:29 PM
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#8
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,831 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains
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if you don't want to use it, just shut the valve and make sure the oil level in the motor is correct...
but these cars have a significant oiling problem in stock trim during cornering.... I installed a 2nd large oil pressure warning light on a 15lb pressure switch and could light it easily when I forgot to turn on the accusump. you need some kind of additional oil modifications over stock for track work. brant |
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| Woody |
Dec 17 2013, 10:03 PM
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#9
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Sandbox Rabblerouser and head toilet scrubber Group: Members Posts: 3,858 Joined: 28-December 10 From: San Antonio Texas Member No.: 12,530 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Get rid of the head vents. Plug em off. Drill the chimney straight through and run it to a breather tank like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-85400/overview/
Pooling may be caused by a bad chimney gasket. |
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| SirAndy |
Dec 17 2013, 11:09 PM
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#10
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,967 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 08:57 AM) Also worried about creating lift with the bottom exit of air. Does your class allow for a hood vent? If so, create some extra downforce and vent out the hood ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=1898832 |
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| carr914 |
Dec 18 2013, 05:48 AM
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#11
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Racer from Birth Group: Members Posts: 122,870 Joined: 2-February 04 From: Tampa,FL Member No.: 1,623 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 11:57 AM) I didn't like the idea of running the oil lines all the way up there in fear of the oil pressure falling off to much. Also worried about creating lift with the bottom exit of air. I'm I stressed about nothing? The accusump is a mystery to me. When I had my 4 Cylinder Track car I Always ran the Accusump and had a Front Cooler, but my Temps were always High. I think it is because Sebring is such a Long Track & the RPMs are always High. As Far as Routing the Air from the Front Cooler, you can run it out the Front Wheel Wells  |
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| carr914 |
Dec 18 2013, 05:59 AM
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#12
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Racer from Birth Group: Members Posts: 122,870 Joined: 2-February 04 From: Tampa,FL Member No.: 1,623 Region Association: South East States |
Here's another Duct to Wheel Well
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| brant |
Dec 18 2013, 07:27 AM
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#13
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,831 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains
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The exit must be larger or less restrictive than the intake
I changed my front cooler exit twice on an old 914 race car. Each time I hanged to a less restrictive exit I dropped another 10-15 degrees of oil temp. This was with the same cooler on the same car and same motor. The tubes to the wheel wells are to restrictive. Air won't flow through the cooler with that much resistance |
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| nolift914 |
Dec 18 2013, 02:22 PM
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#14
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Autoxer Group: Members Posts: 186 Joined: 24-May 09 From: Rockaway Beach NY Member No.: 10,399 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 07:15 PM) QUOTE(ThePaintedMan @ Dec 17 2013, 05:15 PM) Hey Shane, I don't know much about Accusumps, but I have an idea about your oil pooling. Do you have head vents and a breather box? If so, check the connection from the hose at the head. FourBlades has vented heads and he popped one of the hoses off, spewing oil all over the place when we were at Sebring. Mostly at WOT though. I think its coming out of the dipstick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Sounds like you have a FAT 2258 which is same setup that I have. I have 11 to 1 compression which caused positive pressure in the case resulting in the dipstick being pushed out and oil spraying from the tube. I use a rubber cap to close the tube when I am running. In addition I run a tangerine racing breather can. |
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| ChrisFoley |
Dec 18 2013, 07:30 PM
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#15
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I am Tangerine Racing Group: Members Posts: 7,974 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Bolton, CT Member No.: 209 Region Association: None
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An accusump is an engine saver if its set up correctly.
It's important to shut the valve while the oil pressure is high so the accusump is fully charged. The system should incorporate a check valve to force the accusump to feed the bearings and not the oil pump. 230F oil temp is ok if your pressure is good. A front mounted cooler may be necessary if the temp goes any higher. In that case use dash 12 lines to keep pressure loss to a minimum. |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Dec 18 2013, 09:38 PM
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#16
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Dec 17 2013, 09:09 PM) QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 08:57 AM) Also worried about creating lift with the bottom exit of air. Does your class allow for a hood vent? If so, create some extra downforce and vent out the hood ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=1898832 I'm just doing DE's right now and I don't worry about class stuff to much. I enjoy engineering my car as much as running it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) A hood vent would be my first choice though. |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Dec 18 2013, 09:47 PM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 815 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(nolift914 @ Dec 18 2013, 12:22 PM) QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 07:15 PM) QUOTE(ThePaintedMan @ Dec 17 2013, 05:15 PM) Hey Shane, I don't know much about Accusumps, but I have an idea about your oil pooling. Do you have head vents and a breather box? If so, check the connection from the hose at the head. FourBlades has vented heads and he popped one of the hoses off, spewing oil all over the place when we were at Sebring. Mostly at WOT though. I think its coming out of the dipstick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Sounds like you have a FAT 2258 which is same setup I have. I have 11 to 1 which caused positive pressure in the case resulting in the dipstick being pushed out any oil spraying from the tube. I use a rubber cap to close the tube when I am running. I addition run a tangerine racing breather can. Have a tangerine breather can already, but I like your rubber cap idea. Ill try that at the next event. If theres still oil there it could be from the oil filler cap. |
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| Seabird |
Dec 19 2013, 02:08 PM
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 21-November 13 From: United States Member No.: 16,683 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(brant @ Dec 17 2013, 07:29 PM) if you don't want to use it, just shut the valve and make sure the oil level in the motor is correct... but these cars have a significant oiling problem in stock trim during cornering.... I installed a 2nd large oil pressure warning light on a 15lb pressure switch and could light it easily when I forgot to turn on the accusump. you need some kind of additional oil modifications over stock for track work. brant A little bit of a highjack here, sorry. Brant when you say stock trim you mean without the tunacan/larger sump? Or am I to understand that a accusump is necessary equipment for track applications? Miguel |
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| nolift914 |
Dec 19 2013, 02:47 PM
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#19
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Autoxer Group: Members Posts: 186 Joined: 24-May 09 From: Rockaway Beach NY Member No.: 10,399 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Dec 17 2013, 09:32 AM) Hey Everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Here's what I'm running 2258cc 10.5 to 1 compression 40 webers 494 web cam type 1 oil pump mocal oil cooler 25 row mocal sandwich w/thermostat adapter accusump 2 quart Brad Penn Air-cooled oil 15-50 (5 1/2 quarts) Let me explain my set-up The oil cooler is a rear mount under the car on the passenger side rear. I made some duct work and its almost vertical to catch the most air as possible. Track conditions Sunny, low 80s, 30min sessions question 1) With that cooler I didn't expect to run in the 230f oil temps. Is 230f acceptable? question 2) I also have some oil on the top of the case /engine tin pooling. 1-2 side. It only happens under WOT. Any ideas? question 3) I never set-up an accusump and I don't like it so far. It over fills the case at shut-off. Do I have to much air in it (9lbs)? Other then my oil questions, I had a great time. Ran a 2:51. My new best time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) What type fuel are you running with the 10.5 to 1 compression ? I have been running 110 leaded sunoco race gas but the location I have buying it from recently closed. The only race gas within 50miles of me is 100 unleaded. |
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| SirAndy |
Dec 19 2013, 04:39 PM
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#20
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,967 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(nolift914 @ Dec 19 2013, 12:47 PM) What type fuel are you running with the 10.5 to 1 compression ? Pump gas, 91 octane. The twin plug setup helps with that ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) |
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