recent Sebring Abuse, Oil system help Options

[brant]

if you don't want to use it, just shut the valve and make sure the oil level in the motor is correct...


but these cars have a significant oiling problem in stock trim during cornering....

I installed a 2nd large oil pressure warning light on a 15lb pressure switch and could light it easily when I forgot to turn on the accusump.

you need some kind of additional oil modifications over stock for track work.

brant

A little bit of a highjack here, sorry. Brant when you say stock trim you mean without the tunacan/larger sump? Or am I to understand that a accusump is necessary equipment for track applications?

Miguel

Miguel,
I think I was a little vague because there are lots of opinions
I believe the tuna can with extended pick up will help A LOT, and may be good enough....

that being said, my own belief is that a small accusump is even a little better
we used to run both on our 4 cylinder race car

before I added the accusump, I used to run only a tuna can (along with the front cooler and large oil pump)

a high volume oil pump is probably a really good addition to help during any momentary dips in oil pressure

We didn't add the accusump due to any failures
but improved oiling during cornering should increase motor life
and during the 13 or so years we ran the 4 cylinder race car it evolved from DE to full Club Race.... we kept buying hotter and hotter more dedicated motors during that time and at some point it became a bit of insurance to improve oiling and help an expensive motor last longer.

brant

[Jetsetsurfshop]

Hey Everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Here's what I'm running
2258cc
10.5 to 1 compression
40 webers
494 web cam
type 1 oil pump
mocal oil cooler 25 row
mocal sandwich w/thermostat adapter
accusump 2 quart
Brad Penn Air-cooled oil 15-50 (5 1/2 quarts)

Let me explain my set-up
The oil cooler is a rear mount under the car on the passenger side rear. I made some duct work and its almost vertical to catch the most air as possible.
Track conditions
Sunny, low 80s, 30min sessions

question 1) With that cooler I didn't expect to run in the 230f oil temps. Is 230f acceptable?
question 2) I also have some oil on the top of the case /engine tin pooling. 1-2 side.
It only happens under WOT. Any ideas?
question 3) I never set-up an accusump and I don't like it so far.
It over fills the case at shut-off. Do I have to much air in it (9lbs)?
Other then my oil questions, I had a great time. Ran a 2:51. My new best time.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

What type fuel are you running with the 10.5 to 1 compression ? I have been running 110 leaded sunoco race gas but the location I have buying it from recently closed. The only race gas within 50miles of me is 100 unleaded.

I've been adding 100 octane aviation fuel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[brant]

if you use a wide band, its best to check your ratio's with AV gas
the gas is fine, but some of the stabilizers and fillers in it are different than pump or race gas

due to the extra additives, it slightly changes your air/fuel ratio's with less power in the same volume

nothing big... but sometimes slightly different jetting can bring improvements.

[Jetsetsurfshop]

An accusump is an engine saver if its set up correctly.
It's important to shut the valve while the oil pressure is high so the accusump is fully charged.
The system should incorporate a check valve to force the accusump to feed the bearings and not the oil pump.

230F oil temp is ok if your pressure is good.
A front mounted cooler may be necessary if the temp goes any higher.
In that case use dash 12 lines to keep pressure loss to a minimum.

I don't have a check valve and will be installing it after the new year.
I really don't want to put the cooler up front. Anyone use the heater ducts to get cool air to the rear?

[brant]

I re-read the thread and answered my own question....

but frontal air is much more efficient
the heater ducts don't carry significant air what so ever
the cowl is a low pressure and I've seen that work...
if you keep the cooler as you have it, you may need to build a scoop where there is clean air above or below the car to bring air to the cooler.

[ThePaintedMan]

Brant, I KNOW I've asked you this before, probably over two years ago when I first started. But is that all there is to it to add a front oil cooler for a /4? A high volume pump, sandwich adapter, lines, cooler and ducting? I admit I still don't quite get the Type 4 oiling system, but I was always worried about pressure dropping off from running oil that far forward and then back.

[carr914]

George, as long as you have the Upgrade to the Oil Pump your Pressure will be good.

The Accusump I think is essential to a -4 that is on the Track because of Corner Forces & the resulting loss of Oiling . Plus another advantage is Pre-Oiling the Motor prior to Start-up

[ChrisFoley]

Brant, I KNOW I've asked you this before, probably over two years ago when I first started. But is that all there is to it to add a front oil cooler for a /4? A high volume pump, sandwich adapter, lines, cooler and ducting? I admit I still don't quite get the Type 4 oiling system, but I was always worried about pressure dropping off from running oil that far forward and then back.

I use dash 12 lines to minimize pressure losses from drag.

[brant]

Brant, I KNOW I've asked you this before, probably over two years ago when I first started. But is that all there is to it to add a front oil cooler for a /4? A high volume pump, sandwich adapter, lines, cooler and ducting? I admit I still don't quite get the Type 4 oiling system, but I was always worried about pressure dropping off from running oil that far forward and then back.

yes sir...
its one of those jobs that sounds alot worse than it actually is.

Depending on the motor, I've had some motors with the addition of the oil pressure spring kit also.

but oil pressure drop off isn't a problem with a larger pump.
putting the pump in can be harder than the rest of the job.

[ThePaintedMan]

Gotcha, thanks guys. Still trying to figure out if we need one. The last time I was at Sebring, oil temps peaked at 210, which is perfect. But then again, the motor wouldn't turn past 4,000 rpms, so I'm not sure that was a good gauge on whether we needed a cooler or not.

Hoping to do another DE in the Spring to find out for sure. I know about the modification to the drive tab needed to run a cast iron Type I pump in a Type IV. But anyone have any recommendations on a good pump and recommended size? This motor is somewhat stockish, from what I can tell. Joe O'Brien seems to think it's got a hotter cam in it, but until I have the chance to measure it I don't know what the duration is. Just need a pump that will be sufficient to do it's job, but not draw too much attention from the Chumpcar officials.

This is the only one I know anything about: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/MELLING-30mm-...ling-type-1.htm

Sorry for the hijack Shane!

[Jetsetsurfshop]

Gotcha, thanks guys. Still trying to figure out if we need one. The last time I was at Sebring, oil temps peaked at 210, which is perfect. But then again, the motor wouldn't turn past 4,000 rpms, so I'm not sure that was a good gauge on whether we needed a cooler or not.

Hoping to do another DE in the Spring to find out for sure. I know about the modification to the drive tab needed to run a cast iron Type I pump in a Type IV. But anyone have any recommendations on a good pump and recommended size? This motor is somewhat stockish, from what I can tell. Joe O'Brien seems to think it's got a hotter cam in it, but until I have the chance to measure it I don't know what the duration is. Just need a pump that will be sufficient to do it's job, but not draw too much attention from the Chumpcar officials.

This is the only one I know anything about: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/MELLING-30mm-...ling-type-1.htm

Sorry for the hijack Shane!

I don't mind a good hijack. Its all good info for me too.
I don't see how a 914 can compete with the other chumpcars. Without traffic I could do from 2:51-2:53. Guys were running 2:40s!!
Have you contacted the chumpcar guys? I'm going to make a questions list and ring them up. I think my 5-lug conversion may be a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[brant]

I've used the melling in about 7 motors now

some folks will tell you the steel expansion rate of a melling is problematic with an aluminum case... possibly causing loss of pressure if the expansion creates internal leak-by

I personally have not had that problem
currenlty there is one in the yellow car I sold (rear trunk cooler car with no track use), and the black car I still own with a front cooler

I used them in all of my 4 race motors back in the day also.

I believe that Jake had said that the quality control of the melling had dropped significantly a couple of years ago when the company traded hands... I've only bought one since that time and its working well

so I haven't noticed any problems ?

brant

[ThePaintedMan]

I don't mind a good hijack. Its all good info for me too.
I don't see how a 914 can compete with the other chumpcars. Without traffic I could do from 2:51-2:53. Guys were running 2:40s!!
Have you contacted the chumpcar guys? I'm going to make a questions list and ring them up. I think my 5-lug conversion may be a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Shane, send me a PM if you have any questions. I've reached out to Chumpcar a lot over the past two years and they've been extremely helpful. There are a few idiosyncrasies to the 914 that don't apply to most of the other cars whereby we have some loopholes in the rules. I doubt they would ever even know that a 5-lug conversion wasn't stock. Their eyes are mostly focused on the BMW and Honda guys.

To answer your question, the 914 is not competitive. At all. Best times at the 2013 Sebring race were in the low 2:40s and several cars probably were capable of going below that. Heck, I turned 2:43s in a BMW E30 that understeered like a pig. But I built ours to have fun and hopefully finish. If and when we blow the motor, we'll put a Suby in it and destroy them all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Thanks for the advice and personal experiences Brant! We'll see how it does at the next DE. If it gets too hot, at least I have a parts list in mind now.

[Randal]

you really need a front cooler to improve efficiency on the track

I know Chris at Tangerine and others have wonderful rear cooler systems that work... I'm not taking anything away from them

but frontal air is going to be more efficient
and I have always found front coolers to be more effective
(I did put a rear cooler into one car, and was never pleased with it's results)

regarding the accusump... I assume you have a shut off valve?
you have to contain the oil into the sump for shut off
without the valve the over-full condition blows valve cover gaskets
possibly the source of your oil pooling too.

brant

I've had Accusump on both my 2.0 and my 2.4 type 4 motors. I can't prove they lengthen engine life, but I've never had a failure due to oiling issues. With the money you put into a motor, it's not a difficult to understand ROI to have a bit of insurance.

[Jetsetsurfshop]

Still working on getting the oil to cool down. Worried about Summer track days!!
These pics are how I mounted the cooler up.
I want it to stay in the rear because of my fuel cell (its tight up there).
Thinking about the hole saw to get some air out.
Im up for advise before I cut more of my car up.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seabird]

I like the installation, why not just add a fan to push air through it?

[Jetsetsurfshop]

I like the installation, why not just add a fan to push air through it?

Check out the first picture. Its kinda "wedged" in there. I own a pull-thru fan that I haven't installed yet. Not surf if a fan will solve my problems? Probably wouldn't hurt though

[Seabird]

Check out the first picture. Its kinda "wedged" in there. I own a pull-thru fan that I haven't installed yet. Not surf if a fan will solve my problems? Probably wouldn't hurt though

It's easier for air to flow around than through, so it does. Some air will flow through but it's not like a radiator at the front of the car. The fan will do the work of drawing it through. Air flow is the key to cooling. As an added benefit it works when your not moving so it keeps cooling while your waiting to get on the track and while your idling back to the pits.

Worth a try, easy to install. There is a thermostat switch/install kit that Advance sells that lets you adjust when it comes on. I use one on my e30 and on the GTV. Niether have issues with over heating. The e30 has a m30 engine out of a 535 and most folks say it's hard to keep them cool in the smaller engine bay of the e30 (and that's my track toy).

[brant]

I think the fan will help too

although some say at speed the fan becomes intrusive and a partial blockage to full frontal air (if you have full frontal air)

I would build a scoop on that to pull in clean air from under the car. That would add some aero drag but the trade off being enough air flow to cool better

no matter what you need to add some screen to that cooler to protect it from rocks and garbage

[Jetsetsurfshop]

I think the fan will help too

although some say at speed the fan becomes intrusive and a partial blockage to full frontal air (if you have full frontal air)

I would build a scoop on that to pull in clean air from under the car. That would add some aero drag but the trade off being enough air flow to cool better

no matter what you need to add some screen to that cooler to protect it from rocks and garbage

Oil being cool is priority number 1. Want to Chump it for 14 hours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) A little aero drag is ok.

I planned on doing a protective screen and forgot. I looked for rubber up there and there was none. Still need a screen though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Fan will be on soon too