Bus 4 spd trans, Anybody done this Options

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

Thought of an interesting topic---has anybody put a beefed up bus or t1 trans in the teener----

I loved the gear spacing on my old superbug--and first gear for my car,,well,,,sucks ass--and second is too tall for a good start off--

Would rather spend 650 bucks on a pro-streeter WITH a rhino case and super diff than thousands upgrading my 901--

Sand rail mid engine cable shifter should be able to be adapted rather easily and the trans install is a non-event...

What you think???? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[TC/914]

I'll tell you what I think if you PM me as to where that great avatar came from!

Swapping a type one trans would be pretty easy and has been already thought out by the mid engine sand buggy boys. A quick visit to

http://shoptalkforums.com/ or http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/

will answer all of your parts matching questions regarding brackets, shifter, etc. along with which starter will fit the type one trans and which flywheel will need to be used on your engine. I would suspect a 70 flywheel with a semi-automatic VW Bug starter will do the trick. Otherwise, just talk with the folks at RANCHO and describe what you want. Everything else is pretty much a bolt it.

Good luck with a cool idea!

TC

[736conver]

I had a 2.0 914 engine in a type 1 chassis, fiberglass dune buggy body. Dont remember the flywheel clutch combo though. It was also an IRS system. If I remember correctly the swing axles need some grinding to get flywheel clearance.

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

TC--you would not want me to kiss and tell would you???

736- I know kennedy makes the components very cheap for this kind of swap--not much to it--I am REALLY thinking about this.

I already have an early style tranny--IRS, with the dual removable side plates--I could swap the ring gear in about 1/2 hour.

Cable shifter is about 150-250 bucks complete--

Wow, a true H pattern shift!!!

Plus with the rhino case--125 clams--super diff--110 clams and all the gear ratios I could possibly need for another 200 clams--AND a choice, a real choice of several ring and pinion combos!!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

And these puppies are proven to hold 400+ ponies when the 3rd and 4th gear sets are welded to the shaft--hmmmmm

About 25 lbs lighter--hmmmm---easily make 65 mph in first at 6500k---hmmmmm

Synchro problems pretty much tossed out the window..hmmmmmm

This is a truely worthwhile expenditure for my poor broke ass..hmmmmm

Yep, I made the decision--gonna do it!!!!

My friends chide me as to why I hang on to car stuff--like a '69 model IRS bug trans---for YEARS---and know I am edified! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Well, back to work! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif)

[736conver]

QUOTE

736- I know kennedy makes the components very cheap for this kind of swap--not much to it--I am REALLY thinking about this.

You can get the components anywhere. I didnt use any custom pieces for my 914 into the IRS trans. They were all stock. I just dont remember the combo of the clutch set-up. I know it was a mix of VW parts with the 914 flywheel.

[Mueller]

QUOTE

What you think????

sounds like a good idea if it works, there must be a reason we do not see this done more often???

at least here in our PCA region, the VW transmission would not be allowed in time trials (at least not in a specific class if someone complained)....you could run it in auto-x, but only in the exhibition class....

[SpecialK]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 06:30 PM)

QUOTE What you think???? sounds like a good idea if it works, there must be a reason we do not see this done more often??? at least here in our PCA region, the VW transmission would not be allowed in time trials (at least not in a specific class if someone complained)....you could run it in auto-x, but only in the exhibition class....

Leave the 914 shift knob on as a decoy (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 21 2005, 09:36 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 06:30 PM) QUOTE What you think???? sounds like a good idea if it works, there must be a reason we do not see this done more often??? at least here in our PCA region, the VW transmission would not be allowed in time trials (at least not in a specific class if someone complained)....you could run it in auto-x, but only in the exhibition class.... Leave the 914 shift knob on as a decoy (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) YEA, and never ever let anyone else drive it!!! Cause they would surely munch the box--- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/fighting19.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

BUT....they are still 4 speeds (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

berg 5 speed trans anyone?

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 21 2005, 10:07 PM)

BUT....they are still 4 speeds (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) berg 5 speed trans anyone?

The berg is wayyy to much money- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) -and with all the gear ratio and final drive ratio choices for cheap the 4spd will outgun the 5----excellant first--close second and third--with a nice overdrive fourth--get the right ratios and match the tire diameter accordingly..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

4spds are not all bad--the 930's came stock with them---- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Jan 21 2005, 08:15 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 21 2005, 10:07 PM) BUT....they are still 4 speeds  <_< berg 5 speed trans anyone? The berg is wayyy to much money- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) -and with all the gear ratio and final drive ratio choices for cheap the 4spd will outgun the 5----excellant first--close second and third--with a nice overdrive fourth--get the right ratios and match the tire diameter accordingly..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) 4spds are not all bad--the 930's came stock with them---- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

930's had a ton more HP too (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[bondo]

Wow, I'm intrigued. How much HP and torque are you gonna bolt to it? I'm definitely gonna watch and see what happens.

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (bondo @ Jan 21 2005, 10:13 PM)

Wow, I'm intrigued. How much HP and torque are you gonna bolt to it? I'm definitely gonna watch and see what happens.

bodily injury or death are surely going to follow.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 21 2005, 11:27 PM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Jan 21 2005, 08:15 PM) QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 21 2005, 10:07 PM) BUT....they are still 4 speeds  <_< berg 5 speed trans anyone? The berg is wayyy to much money- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) -and with all the gear ratio and final drive ratio choices for cheap the 4spd will outgun the 5----excellant first--close second and third--with a nice overdrive fourth--get the right ratios and match the tire diameter accordingly..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) 4spds are not all bad--the 930's came stock with them---- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) 930's had a ton more HP too (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) so whats yer point young feller??? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/alien.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (bondo @ Jan 22 2005, 12:13 AM)

Wow, I'm intrigued. How much HP and torque are you gonna bolt to it? I'm definitely gonna watch and see what happens.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Not really the hipo issue with me--my motor will be turbo, and will be strong, but for lack of funds I will not have the best heads, the best P/C set, etc....I will be retired from the service before I could afford anything of that magnitude..

No what I am striving for is getting the most bang for the buck--The 901 is a good tranny--but most of us that have one has age issues with it---For less than the complete set of synchros alone I will have a brutally built tranny with the proper gear ratios for my intended driving--but the real kicker is having a tranny that I know will last me a very, very, very long time with no issues arising--plus I really hate the 901 shift pattern. I have to hold a formal class to instruct any of my buddies on how to drive it and have a good Porsche experience, and even then it gets ugly with the slush box real quick....Not saying the T1 is better ( arguably ) but because the T1 people have access to the best equipment at a fraction of the cost and plus it bolts right up--just need a few little T1 specific items, like clutch disc, T/O bearing and pilot bearing--and the Jamar mid engine shifter-add all of this up and it is still less than a set of 901 synchros---

I am going to do it--I have two T1 trannies, one late irs and one early irs ( this is the coveted one, it has dual side plates, makes getting into it and modding it very easy ) Hopefully by the time I am done doing all this and prove it out I will be able to bring it to market for anyone else that might want to--rock on!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[andys]

What are each of the "net" ratios (1 thru 4 x final drive ratio)? I seem to recall that you can't get a tall enough 4th/R&P combo, as most applications are either for very tall tires and/or drag race applications. Can you point me to info on available ratio's that would perhaps suit higher HP motors? You will need about a 3.00:1 "net" ratio or better. The 901 is 3.14:1, a 915 is 2.94:1, and a 944T (016R) is 2.80:1..........Thanks,

Andy

[jwalters]

QUOTE (andys @ Jan 22 2005, 12:58 AM)

What are each of the "net" ratios (1 thru 4 x final drive ratio)? I seem to recall that you can't get a tall enough 4th/R&P combo, as most applications are either for very tall tires and/or drag race applications. Can you point me to info on available ratio's that would perhaps suit higher HP motors? You will need about a 3.00:1 "net" ratio or better. The 901 is 3.14:1, a 915 is 2.94:1, and a 944T (016R) is 2.80:1..........Thanks, Andy

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) yea thats easy--go to CB's website--they do tranny's too and list all the gearsets and final drives-----basically if you want a 3.88 R&P AND a stockish .85 fourth--you can have 1500 rpms at 70 mph--the ratios are mind boggling--the T1 guys have something close to 200+ different combos and each gear is about 35-75 bucks!!! You simply tell them your tire diameter and what kind of driving you do and what you expect and all the T1 tanny people take it from there....

Also look at rancho transaxles--they are one of the T1 industries leaders---there is another one made called a Mendeola 4 spd--this is good for 800 hp $$$$

About 3 years ago hot vws mag came out with an issue listing all the T1 hipo trannies and the makers--ungodly!!! Whatever you want--you can have......

[andys]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Jan 21 2005, 10:13 PM)

[/QUOTE] (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) yea thats easy--go to CB's website--they do tranny's too and list all the gearsets and final drives-----basically if you want a 3.88 R&P AND a stockish .85 fourth--you can have 1500 rpms at 70 mph--the ratios are mind boggling--the T1 guys have something close to 200+ different combos and each gear is about 35-75 bucks!!! You simply tell them your tire diameter and what kind of driving you do and what you expect and all the T1 tanny people take it from there.... Also look at rancho transaxles--they are one of the T1 industries leaders---there is another one made called a Mendeola 4 spd--this is good for 800 hp $$$$ About 3 years ago hot vws mag came out with an issue listing all the T1 hipo trannies and the makers--ungodly!!! Whatever you want--you can have......

That 3.88 R&P and 0.85 4th is not nearly tall enough for the tires you'd run on a 914. I know there's a ton of ratio's for sure, but I don't recall seeing anything in a suitable range for a 914.

The beauty of this trans, are the incredibly cheap prices. Parts are everywhere!!

Andy

[GWN7]

I wonder how it would work with a V8?

[jwalters]

QUOTE (andys @ Jan 22 2005, 01:29 AM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Jan 21 2005, 10:13 PM) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)  yea thats easy--go to CB's website--they do tranny's too and list all the gearsets and final drives-----basically if you want a 3.88 R&P AND a stockish .85 fourth--you can have 1500 rpms at 70 mph--the ratios are mind boggling--the T1 guys have something close to 200+ different combos and each gear is about 35-75 bucks!!! You simply tell them your tire diameter and what kind of driving you do and what you expect and all the T1 tanny people take it from there.... Also look at rancho transaxles--they are one of the T1 industries leaders---there is another one made called a Mendeola 4 spd--this is good for 800 hp $$$$ About 3 years ago hot vws mag came out with an issue listing all the T1 hipo trannies and the makers--ungodly!!! Whatever you want--you can have...... That 3.88 R&P and 0.85 4th is not nearly tall enough for the tires you'd run on a 914. I know there's a ton of ratio's for sure, but I don't recall seeing anything in a suitable range for a 914. The beauty of this trans, are the incredibly cheap prices. Parts are everywhere!! Andy

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) well the bugs run 15 inchers as stock also-put a bug and teener side by side with stock ratios and stock 165-15's and the bug will be at 2800 rpm at 70 mph--my teener is at 3350 rpm and my tires are only 1 inch smaller than stock , so not really allot of diameter reduction to fudge the numbers--something like only 2.5%, again , not allot.-also the bug standard R&P is 4.88:1, I believe--I know it is more than 4.12:1--and what is the 901?? Something like 4.42:1??? Now for the guys putting 16's 17's and 18's on their cars--the rubber will be in most cases of a larger diameter with a inverse reduction in rpms--that is just for high gear analysis--Now take that same bug tranny and gear the lower cogs to match the torque curve--and voila--you have insane acceleration thru torque multiplication in 1-3 and because of the high ( numerically low) R&P when you do shift out of third to fourth, you are already smoking at close to 120 mph--In my superbug--stock engine, stock tranny, 1600--100 mph was all it could muster on a cold dense day--but at only 5500 rpm and in third gear, I was doing 80 mph. Now most hotted teeners will easily pull another 1000 rpms, and with optimized ratios coupled with careful tire selection--you have a beast.

The stock 4th ratio of a bug is .84:1 and the 5th gear of the 901 is 1.40:1--it is allot higher ( numerically smaller, the input shaft to output shaft is 22:31, meaning the engine is turning faster than output) ) Wheras on the bug the engine is turning less than once per revolution of the tire, the 914 engine is turning 1.4 times per revolution of the wheel--plug a 4.12:1 or a 3.88:1 R&P ( which already is taller than the 901 ) in to the bug tranny and you have a much more efficient combo with which to play with gear sets, much more latitude....and a higher top speed if the power is there. but again, it all depends on tire selection. So in fact this combo is MUCH taller than the 901 trans.

I always laugh at those guys that put 22 inch wheels on their cadillacs!!! Even in my teener they are no match----they take away so much torque multiplication with those large diameter tire combos, that 0-60 they suck ass--and inversely--they have a much higher top speed potential if the POWER is there--which it kinda is----

point is -whatever you gear your box to for a specific tire diameter, and then later change the diameter for whatever reason--you will no longer have the same speed / rpm shift points or top speed.

This is how many crotch rocket dudes set their top speeds--it is prohibitively expensive to change internal gear ratios--so they go to a larger diameter tire which gives more available rpms for a given top speed than at which previously they were redlined--again-they have the power to do this--and their 0-60 times slip only a little due to high power output. this is the poor mans way to change the final gearing w/o going into the boxes.

With my tire combo-I will be looking for a max of 45 mph in first, 70 mph in second, and at least 105 in third--kinda tall first, but I am turboing--so I will have available more torque in the lower rpm range to power thru the ratio deficit--then coupled with a close 2-3, because as speed increases the power required to maintain that speed is squared, you need close coupled gear sets to relieve the motor and take up all the air / drivetrain drag which is induced and robbing HP, hence, a better torque multiplication rule. Then a nice long tall 4th gear to maximize trap speeds--

What is sooo cool, that say an engine makes 200 hp on a direct drive dyno and 200 TQ. When you plug in the numbers, lets say, 3.25:1 first gear, the tranny is multiplying this 200 TQ by 3.25:1 or 650 ftlbs of torque is making its way to the final drive--the final drive is 3.88:1 so we plug these numbers in and get 2522 ftlbs of torque--not MEASURED tq--purely mathematical---but then factor in a diameter of say 32 inches, which is inverse to final drive, and you are back down to about 145 measured tq-at the wheels-or say a 28 inch tire, that tq is now about 180--so it is crucially important to finalize the tire choice first---too many people do not even think about factoring in tire size FIRST--and they never see the real potential of their car.

With this in mind it IS possible for the wheels to develope more tq than the engine actually makes--this is where cog and final drive selection comes in---

Another thing to think about--nascar engines put out about 650 hp in a 3000# ?? car, and they go upwards of 200 mph, with phone booth aerodynamics---Ferrari has to make 550 hp to touch 200 and with the very best aerodynamics possible--but the nascar one is not very street friendly..........this is a good case of gear ratios making more power available than the engine produces. And the 4 spd can trounce a five--the 930 did it--it had the power to power thru the deficit coupled with a high 4th--had an eyeball snapping 0-60 and an astounding top speed for its time.