 Any successful radiator in engine compartment conversions?, Or other than front trunk installs? |
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| Mueller |
 Jan 19 2015, 04:57 PM
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#61
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914 Freak!  Group: Members Posts: 17,150 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None 
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Crazy idea time.....
Still have "something" up front yet sized much smaller due to using the coolant lines that go up front as heat sinks.... Not easy or cheap to fabricate and more spots for leaks...then you have to worry about extra resistance/friction for the water pump to deal with.  |
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| DBCooper |
Jan 19 2015, 06:56 PM
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#62
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14's in the 13's with ATTITUDE Group: Members Posts: 3,079 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Dazed and Confused Member No.: 2,618 Region Association: Northern California |
I've seen finned aluminum tubing a bit like that in a process plant on the Gulf coast. Thought about trying to find it for my car when I was planning for the V8, but never did.
Found it, here: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.vulcanfinnedtubes.com-2618-1421716083.1.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.vulcanfinnedtubes.com-2618-1421716084.2.gif) I just googled "longitudinal finned aluminum tubing." I think it's high-dollar specialty stuff (petro-chemical plant) but ask, for the tiny quantities you'd need I'm sure they'd have some odd lengths for sale cheap. The one I saw was thin walled and actually had a lot more thinner and shorter fins than that, so if that doesn't work try some of the other suppliers. And if it sticks down too much you can just grind off those fins. |
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| Dave_Darling |
Jan 19 2015, 07:10 PM
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#63
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 15,105 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California
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Talk to Chuck at Elephant Racing in SJ. They do mandrel-bent finned tubing for 911 oil cooler lines. The tubes are actually threaded, IIRC, but the threads act like little fins.
I kind of doubt you'll get a whole lot of cooling just from any set of lines, but I guess every bit helps. --DD |
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| timothy_nd28 |
Jan 19 2015, 07:55 PM
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#64
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,299 Joined: 25-September 07 From: IN Member No.: 8,154 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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Trane has been using this for decades, highly highly efficient with heat transfer but I worry about the pressure drop.
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| Mueller |
Jan 19 2015, 08:03 PM
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#65
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,150 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Jan 19 2015, 05:55 PM)  Trane has been using this for decades, highly highly efficient with heat transfer but I worry about the pressure drop. Interesting stuff.... http://www.achrnews.com/articles/90183-the...eat-coil-debate Seems like this might be a thermal issue that a professional HVAC designer should be involved in! |
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| Mueller |
Jun 26 2015, 10:45 AM
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#66
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,150 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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New Lamborghini Huracan has rear mounted radiators...now to find a picture! |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Jun 26 2015, 12:23 PM
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#67
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Dec 6 2014, 10:36 PM) QUOTE(Mueller @ Dec 5 2014, 07:49 PM) QUOTE(effutuo101 @ Dec 5 2014, 07:34 PM) So, running an air cooled big 6 gets enough air. Why wouldn't a large 4 get enough with fans? Inquiring minds want to know. Exactly ... No, not exactly ... On the air cooled engines, there is a clear separation between the intake side of the engine and the underside where the hot air is expelled. Without that separation, our aircooled engines would be very short-lived. I have yet to see any watercooled solution that followed the same principal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Adding to this.. the 911 engine uses Mechanical Energy to run a Centrifugal Blower. It moves MEGA cubic feet per minute by sacrificing many horsepower. Estimates are up to 16HP: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...g-fan-cost.html Think about how big a 16HP electric motor is... In a 914, you need brute force to pull the air down and through the engine bay. I think this is the fundamental reason why a front mounted radiator is far more efficient. |
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| rick 918-S |
Jun 26 2015, 03:25 PM
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#68
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,877 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region 
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QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Jan 19 2015, 10:44 AM) Scott Thacher was the guy who showed up in WCR 05 with his "In Bay" NA scooby conversion. He drove it from MD to SoCal and back! #'s dont always tell you if it will WORK. Thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Traveled with him. The car was completely back yard engineered before Renagade even thought about it. Stock Suby radiator just ahead of the engine. Small scoop on the pan pulling air off the road. We were stuck in construction at way over 100 deg. I had to shut my engine off. He was driving around us through the ditches.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) It will work. |
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| Mueller |
Jun 26 2015, 04:37 PM
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#69
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,150 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Jun 26 2015, 11:23 AM) Adding to this.. the 911 engine uses Mechanical Energy to run a Centrifugal Blower. It moves MEGA cubic feet per minute by sacrificing many horsepower. Estimates are up to 16HP: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...g-fan-cost.html Think about how big a 16HP electric motor is... In a 914, you need brute force to pull the air down and through the engine bay. I think this is the fundamental reason why a front mounted radiator is far more efficient. hmmm, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way....perhaps it should be suck and not blow? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Radiator setups with pull type fans are more efficient than those with pusher fans... |
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| Chris H. |
Jun 26 2015, 05:22 PM
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#70
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4,054 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Chicago 'burbs Member No.: 73 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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Yes, always pull air, never push (Mike Bellis).
Some of the pics are missing from Scott's build but I think I have them somewhere. Let me look. Just need a decent sized rad and strong fan/fans. I think he mounted it pretty low. I also toyed with the idea of somehow using the heater tubes in the longs as a secondary source to blast air onto a mid ship rad, bringing the air from the front. Couldn't figure out where to duct it without cutting and the cowl vent seemed too small so I abandoned it, but maybe it will turn a light bulb on for someone else... |
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| Andyrew |
Jun 26 2015, 06:25 PM
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#71
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,377 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Jun 26 2015, 02:25 PM) QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Jan 19 2015, 10:44 AM) Scott Thacher was the guy who showed up in WCR 05 with his "In Bay" NA scooby conversion. He drove it from MD to SoCal and back! #'s dont always tell you if it will WORK. Thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Traveled with him. The car was completely back yard engineered before Renagade even thought about it. Stock Suby radiator just ahead of the engine. Small scoop on the pan pulling air off the road. We were stuck in construction at way over 100 deg. I had to shut my engine off. He was driving around us through the ditches.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) It will work. Its all about proper shrouding and airflow IMHO I think engines under 200hp can support something like that. I have been considering the aluminum tubes for a while but I really dont think we would see more than a 5 degree heat loss and only while moving. If your sitting on hot asphalt rolling slowly and the asphalt is 130 deg....your really not going to get any benefit.... You can probably get more benefit from having small inline motorcycle radiators in the fender wells with some fans that kick on. I am going to have one for my a/w intercooler (similar to Miked but without direct airflow)but I have more fender space than most anyone. The other thing I think is electric water pumps to flow more coolant at low speeds, Like the Daves one I posted earlier (cant search now) |
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| worn |
Jun 26 2015, 07:11 PM
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#72
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Winner of the Utah Twisted Joint Award Group: Members Posts: 3,432 Joined: 3-June 11 From: Madison, WI Member No.: 13,152 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Dec 6 2014, 10:41 PM) QUOTE(Mueller @ Dec 5 2014, 07:49 PM) water is a more efficient medium than air so And the (armchair?) engineer in me cringes at that statement. Because last time i checked each and every "water-cooled" car i know of uses air to expel the heat from the system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) You have to admit that the phase change provides a cushion: if all else fails it ca boil over. |
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| 914forme |
Jun 26 2015, 07:50 PM
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#73
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None
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Motorcycle Rads I have thought about several times. I even took time to look for small rads to mount in my front fenders. Newer bikes are using curved rads to get more surface area in a narrower space.
The one I am still looking for was as a kid I remember an add in the back of Hot Rod. Claimed to cool a 454 with a super small rad, like a 12x12, octagon thing. Now maybe it was all made up, as a 454 could be cooled while idling and coasting down hill at 100 miles an hour. Love to find out if it actually worked though as I think fender rads would be a very nice touch. Much like Brant's oil coolers. I keep trying to figure this one out. And yet to do it. And right now, I am just in the mood to get the car running and get to driving. |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Jun 29 2015, 10:49 AM
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#74
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 26 2015, 03:37 PM) hmmm, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way....perhaps it should be suck and not blow? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Radiator setups with pull type fans are more efficient than those with pusher fans... Somebody already did the work years ago either on this forum, or on "Rennlist", but it's very useful to understand where the Vacuum is in and around that engine bay at speed. Typically, you'd expect a low pressure area behind the rear window due to the sudden transition of the roof ending at the engine compartment "intake". Under the car, the little skirt Porsche put in front of the bottom edge of the engine compartment is supposed to do the same thing, create a low pressure region to help "pull" the air through the fins as pumped by the engine's scroll/squirrel cage blower. I've always wondered which area had a lower pressure "vacuum" at a given speed. I don't see a compelling reason for air to flow through the engine bay on it's own without being pumped in some manner. Years ago, at an autocross, I had to laugh at the racer's solution.. taking furnace ducting, and running it straight through the front of the car, trunk, passenger compartment, and ending aimed directly at the blower which had blades removed to minimize parasitic drag and lost HP. The car's sheetmetal was certainly hacked up. Now THAT was taking the bull by the horns.... |
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| Chris914n6 |
Jun 29 2015, 02:39 PM
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#75
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Jackstands are my life. Group: Members Posts: 3,443 Joined: 14-March 03 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 431 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Looking at racing rads for toyota celica/mr2/spyder ran across racing rads for motorcycles that were not curved, if someone was considering doing multiple small rads now is a good time to hit ebay.
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| Andyrew |
Jun 29 2015, 08:51 PM
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#76
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,377 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California
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You talking about these puppies?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-CORE-2-ROW-MO...735&vxp=mtr Ya thats what I am going to use for my A/W Intercooler in my fender. |
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| SirAndy |
Jun 29 2015, 09:14 PM
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#77
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 42,122 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Jun 29 2015, 09:49 AM) Years ago, at an autocross, I had to laugh at the racer's solution.. taking furnace ducting, and running it straight through the front of the car, trunk, passenger compartment, and ending aimed directly at the blower which had blades removed to minimize parasitic drag and lost HP. The car's sheetmetal was certainly hacked up. Now THAT was taking the bull by the horns.... Was the car yellow? If so, that is Rich Bontempi's class winning 180HP 1.8L ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| Chris H. |
Jun 29 2015, 11:40 PM
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#78
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4,054 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Chicago 'burbs Member No.: 73 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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QUOTE(Andyrew @ Jun 29 2015, 09:51 PM) You talking about these puppies? http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-CORE-2-ROW-MO...735&vxp=mtr Ya thats what I am going to use for my A/W Intercooler in my fender. Some come as a pair and they measure 4.5 X 13 each depending on the one you pick..I think that's about the width of the front trunk area. Man it would be nice to put a couple of those in there and get most of my trunk space back. Could stick them right in front of the opening and vent them just like an oil cooler. Not sure if they would be enough to cool my engine though. Be like having ONE 9x13 rad I guess... Might need one or two more. The small fans sure are pricey! |
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| Dave_Darling |
Jun 30 2015, 09:02 AM
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#79
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 15,105 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Jun 29 2015, 09:49 AM) ...taking furnace ducting, and running it straight through the front of the car, trunk, passenger compartment, and ending aimed directly at the blower ... That's the road-race solution. It stems from rules that were originally written for Little British Cars--you were allowed to duct air from the headlight buckets to the cooling fan. Works well at speed, but not so great at idle or at low speeds. I talked to the late Chuck Forge about it, and the cooling fan with most of the blades removed. He said he ran a full fan once to compare--and it felt like he was dragging a trailer around the track with him! Chuck used fans with, I think, 2 out of every 3 blades removed. I remember Rich using fans with all the blades removed. Probably one reason that Rich quoted higher power levels than Chuck did. --DD |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Jun 30 2015, 10:42 AM
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#80
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 29 2015, 08:14 PM) QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Jun 29 2015, 09:49 AM) Years ago, at an autocross, I had to laugh at the racer's solution.. taking furnace ducting, and running it straight through the front of the car, trunk, passenger compartment, and ending aimed directly at the blower which had blades removed to minimize parasitic drag and lost HP. The car's sheetmetal was certainly hacked up. Now THAT was taking the bull by the horns.... Was the car yellow? If so, that is Rich Bontempi's class winning 180HP 1.8L ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Now that you mention his name, YES it was Rich's car. He knew what he was doing for sure. |
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