The joy was short lived...got it working, Oil pressure = 60 but have leak Options

[DavidSweden]

Well as the title says is all gone tits up.
I started my rebuilt engine yesterday and broke in the cam, today was supposed to be the first drive. I decided to check the actual oil pressure so I pulled the pressure switch and connected my gauge. There was no pressure even at 2k rpm.

The pump is working but there is no pressure. Obviously the oil must be going somewhere, if the high pressure relief plunger is stuck open would this explain what's happening?

Appreciate some help

[stugray]

Stupid questions first:
You DID put the oil in? ( In know most will say stupidest question ever, but I have done it once)

When you installed the pickup tube in the case, you put in the black o-ring?

And since you mentioned the oil pressure relief plunger, you put that in with the spring?

What you have just experienced is EXACTLY WHY I installed a mechanical oil pressure gauge BEFORE I cranked the engine to build pressure for the cam breakin.

Sorry to say this but: If you ran the engine long enough to break in the cam, and you had no oil pressure, then you almost assuredly killed the engine.

[DavidSweden]

Stupid questions first:
You DID put the oil in? ( In know most will say stupidest question ever, but I have done it once)

When you installed the pickup tube in the case, you put in the black o-ring?

And since you mentioned the oil pressure relief plunger, you put that in with the spring?

What you have just experienced is EXACTLY WHY I installed a mechanical oil pressure gauge BEFORE I cranked the engine to build pressure for the cam breakin.

Sorry to say this but: If you ran the engine long enough to break in the cam, and you had no oil pressure, then you almost assuredly killed the engine.

I installed the above

How can I tell if "I killed" the engine?

[ConeDodger]

Pretty sure you didn't run the cam in with no oil pressure, no oil etc. You would know. It wouldn't even take 20 minutes and you would know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Mechanical gauge problem...

[DavidSweden]

Pretty sure you didn't run the cam in with no oil pressure, no oil etc. You would know. It wouldn't even take 20 minutes and you would know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Mechanical gauge problem...

I checked the gauge with compressed air and it works. I agree that some oil must have been circulating otherwise the engine would seize? If the pump is pumping then the oil must be going somewhere?

[stugray]

The oil follows this path:

Oil pickup into pump, out of pump to oil filter bracket, out of oil filter into case where the oil pressure sensor is.
From there it can go two ways: dump back to sump if oil pressure relief valve is open, OR go to oil cooler, THEN back into engine to the bearings.

Here is a diagram of the system if you ignore the filter sandwich plate:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i366.photobucket.com-10819-1430073758.1.jpg)

If the oil pressure sender (switch) port is dry, then none of the engine got oil.

Is the filter full?

[DavidSweden]

The oil follows this path:

Oil pickup into pump, out of pump to oil filter bracket, out of oil filter into case where the oil pressure sensor is.
From there it can go two ways: dump back to sump if oil pressure relief valve is open, OR go to oil cooler, THEN back into engine to the bearings.

Here is a diagram of the system if you ignore the filter sandwich plate:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i366.photobucket.com-10819-1430073758.1.jpg)

If the oil pressure sender (switch) port is dry, then none of the engine got oil.

Is the filter full?

Yes filter is full, there is oil in the gallery under the pressure sender.

[stugray]

Then the only explanations can be:

A - Oil pump not putting out significant pressure - not likely failure, even severely worn pumps will put out SOME.

B - Oil relief valve stuck open or spring missing

C - Oil pickup leaking (sucking air) - was there foam in the oil filter?

D - Missing oil galley plug or hole in case.

If I recall from my case oil passage inspections, there is at least one oil galley plug somewhere in the case that is put in place to seal between two passages, then a second oil galley plug is put in after the first one (not positive on that, but it rings a bell)
Did you have all of the galley plugs removed, and re-installed?

E - Pressure gauge does not work when installed in port.

[DavidSweden]

Then the only explanations can be:

A - Oil pump not putting out significant pressure - not likely failure, even severely worn pumps will put out SOME.

B - Oil relief valve stuck open or spring missing

C - Oil pickup leaking (sucking air) - was there foam in the oil filter?

D - Missing oil galley plug or hole in case.

If I recall from my case oil passage inspections, there is at least one oil galley plug somewhere in the case that is put in place to seal between two passages, then a second oil galley plug is put in after the first one (not positive on that, but it rings a bell)
Did you have all of the galley plugs removed, and re-installed?

E - Pressure gauge does not work when installed in port.

First thanks for helping me out
No foam in the filter, I removed the smaller gallery plugs and replaced them, if one of these was missing there would be a lot of oil under the engine?

If I open the safety relief valve do I need to drain oil from the engine? I am thinking that maybe the plug is stuck and the oil is not going to the sump but to the gallery, I did install the spring.
I am thinking of starting the motor with a tube attached where the pressure switch is to see how much oil is coming up....good idea?
If there is no oil circulating surely the engine would of seized?
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1300.photobucket.com-17452-1430077038.1.jpg)

[TheCabinetmaker]

Stock pressure sensor ? An aftermarket gauge may not work with the stock sender.

[DavidSweden]

Stock pressure sensor ? An aftermarket gauge may not work with the stock sender.

I am not sure what you mean

This is what I am using

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i1300.photobucket.com-17452-1430079096.1.jpg)

[McMark]

Im still liking the oil pressure piston for this.

[DavidSweden]

Im still liking the oil pressure piston for this.

Thanks, was planning on removing it. Question: Do I need to drain the oil and what should I look for when I get it out?

[JeffBowlsby]

Don't these engines have ridiculously low oil pressure anyways? What is a normal value...something like 3-4 psi?

[r3dplanet]

Snap a photo of that piston? I think there are two types of pistons that fit - one for the 914 another for the bus. They both fit. Maybe it's the wrong one?

[DavidSweden]

Don't these engines have ridiculously low oil pressure anyways? What is a normal value...something like 3-4 psi?

Jeff,

I dont know for sure but shouldn't I have 10 psi at idle and 20 at 2k+?

And thanks for the MPS it works a treat

[DavidSweden]

Snap a photo of that piston? I think there are two types of pistons that fit - one for the 914 another for the bus. They both fit. Maybe it's the wrong one?

Ok, I heard or read someplace that the piston could be replace with a ballbearing and washer anyone got any info on this?

[DavidSweden]

Im still liking the oil pressure piston for this.

McMark,
You were right! The piston had sharp edges and had stuck, I am not sure how far down it was but I hope I have not damaged my engine considering I ran it for 20 minutes to break the cam in. I took of the edges with some fine emery paper and reinstalled. The pressure is now 10 psi when warm at tick over and the engine sound ok to my newbie ears.

You live and learn and thanks to everyone who took the time to help me out....again

[toon1]

Don't these engines have ridiculously low oil pressure anyways? What is a normal value...something like 3-4 psi?

It's supposed to be a minimum of 11 at idle on a warmed up engine.

With mine, I will get 0 at idle after a long run, even with bradd penn 20/50 after an oil change.

If I idle more than 30 seconds the pressure slowly returns.

Once I blip the throttle, normal pressure returns

[stugray]

I get >60 PSI at startup with 20w50.

After 20 minutes of hard driving, it will drop to 20 PSI at (slightly high) idle.

And it will drop to 10 PSI (where my warning light turns on) when the idle drops so low that it is about to die.