My latest Megasquirt install, MS2 w/ITBs, wasted spark, relay board and custom harness Options

[Mueller]

Great thread ! What are you referring in post 1 for modern 32# injectors ?

And, how applicable could this mod be for an L-Jet ?

I think I might have had the very 1st Megasquirted* 914 and it was a 1.8 that I removed the L-Jet from. BradR commented it was one of the smoothest idling 914 motors he had seen.

*I was in one of the 1st group buys of the MS1 bare boards way, way back!

[aircooledtechguy]

I agree that installing EFI will not necessarily give you an increase in HP/Torque but it's alot easier to optimize your fuel and timing via a laptop than with jets, venturies and distributor springs. It's also a lot more precise.

D-jet is a good system when everything is working correctly. But it's electro-mechanical and it's the mechanical side that usually fails. Also it's not tuneable. Yes, you can tweak it here and there to support a larger, hungrier motor, but not that much larger and not that much hungrier and your cam selection is very limited.

With MS (and other digital systems like it), every single RPM & load condition is tuneable. With MS2 for example, the fuel tables are a 12X12 (loadXRPM) grid (MS3 has 16X16) with each cell being individually tuneable. Spark control is the same.

So what that enables you to do is to precisely tune for virtually any load/RPM condition for any engine of any displacement with any cam or head combo. That is something D-jet users can only dream about since the D-jet ECU is not very tuneable.. Many blame this on the MAP sensor, but in reality it's the ECU that can't adapt to the load requirements that the MAP is sending it. MS can!!

With MS3, you can run fully sequential injection which allows you to really smooth out a radical cam at idle. It gives you the ability to individually tune each cylinder independently.. This gives you the ability to have a radical cam the idles like a stock cam'd motor @ 900-950 rpms. Again, that's a D-jet tuners dream.

IMHO, D/L-jet is great, *When it works*. Once it doesn't you can easily spend a lot of time/money finding the parts you need to fix it, but in the end, you're installing another 30+ year old part. . . With MS, I don't need to hoard parts; I don't worry about it. A key part of a reliable MS system is a clean/orderly install that's done right. Many are cobbled and look hacked-in so only the original installer can figure it out. These are typically the MS cars you read about giving the owners lots of problems.

As for resale,. . . A stock 2.0L car with 100% complete and working D-jet will likely sell for slightly more to a collector but not necessarily to a owner that's a driver. But if you have a clean, neat and tidy install of an MS system and hand the original D-jet to the next owner, I can't ever see getting less especially if the next owner plans to actually drive the car. That brings us back to the real reason to convert away from stock: DRIVEABILITY plain and simple.

Build a new, big motor later?? No problem. It's a re-tune of the ECU. Add a turbo?? No problem, it's a re-tune and enable boost control and a controller. Need launch control?? Enable it on the drop-down menu.

IMHO, D-jet, carbs and distributors are all compromises. MS is a no compromises and expandable system.

[nine9three]

I agree that installing EFI will not necessarily give you an increase in HP/Torque but it's alot easier to optimize your fuel and timing via a laptop than with jets, venturies and distributor springs. It's also a lot more precise.

D-jet is a good system when everything is working correctly. But it's electro-mechanical and it's the mechanical side that usually fails. Also it's not tuneable. Yes, you can tweak it here and there to support a larger, hungrier motor, but not that much larger and not that much hungrier and your cam selection is very limited.

With MS (and other digital systems like it), every single RPM & load condition is tuneable. With MS2 for example, the fuel tables are a 12X12 (loadXRPM) grid (MS3 has 16X16) with each cell being individually tuneable. Spark control is the same.

So what that enables you to do is to precisely tune for virtually any load/RPM condition for any engine of any displacement with any cam or head combo. That is something D-jet users can only dream about since the D-jet ECU is not very tuneable.. Many blame this on the MAP sensor, but in reality it's the ECU that can't adapt to the load requirements that the MAP is sending it. MS can!!

With MS3, you can run fully sequential injection which allows you to really smooth out a radical cam at idle. It gives you the ability to individually tune each cylinder independently.. This gives you the ability to have a radical cam the idles like a stock cam'd motor @ 900-950 rpms. Again, that's a D-jet tuners dream.

IMHO, D/L-jet is great, *When it works*. Once it doesn't you can easily spend a lot of time/money finding the parts you need to fix it, but in the end, you're installing another 30+ year old part. . . With MS, I don't need to hoard parts; I don't worry about it. A key part of a reliable MS system is a clean/orderly install that's done right. Many are cobbled and look hacked-in so only the original installer can figure it out. These are typically the MS cars you read about giving the owners lots of problems.

As for resale,. . . A stock 2.0L car with 100% complete and working D-jet will likely sell for slightly more to a collector but not necessarily to a owner that's a driver. But if you have a clean, neat and tidy install of an MS system and hand the original D-jet to the next owner, I can't ever see getting less especially if the next owner plans to actually drive the car. That brings us back to the real reason to convert away from stock: DRIVEABILITY plain and simple.

Build a new, big motor later?? No problem. It's a re-tune of the ECU. Add a turbo?? No problem, it's a re-tune and enable boost control and a controller. Need launch control?? Enable it on the drop-down menu.

IMHO, D-jet, carbs and distributors are all compromises. MS is a no compromises and expandable system.

Very well said and thank you for giving such a detailed response. An additional question is that many people who supported MS are now promoting SDS because of its user friendly interface. What say you?

[DBCooper]

Huh. I haven't met anyone like that, are these people active any place other than the SDS forums? I sure don't know everyone, of course, but I know a lot of people who've switched to MS from other systems, no one who's pulled a MS system for SDS.

I think Nate actually answered your question. SDS is just that, simple. If it works for you, and you have no need for any other capabilities and never will then fine, not a problem, use it. In counterpoint MS will be there with all the capabilities you need, no matter how you or your motor evolve. More capabilities inevitably means more variables, so more complexity. You can't get away from that, but it's more complicated because it does more. Other side of that coin, be sure SDS will do everything you need, now and in the future, before you commit to it.

[aircooledtechguy]

Very well said and thank you for giving such a detailed response. An additional question is that many people who supported MS are now promoting SDS because of its user friendly interface. What say you?

Personally speaking, I don't know anyone who has gone from MS to SDS. I do know several who had SDS systems that constantly had to fiddle with the enrichment knob as they drove and tired of this on drives and converted to MS. Admittedly, I have not even looked at an SDS system in a few years since discovering MS for myself. So with that, I'm not familiar with their later products. I have found Tuner Studio (the interface I and most use with MS) to be very user friendly.

[pete000]

This system brings the 914 into the modern world. I have spoken to a Bus owner who mentioned his emissions with the MS system was dramatically better than stock.

[boxsterfan]

Regarding value of our 914's: If your car is a a 4-cylinder that has been through a restore then the value has already been killed. The two primary value for collectors are related to:

1. Rarity of the car (914/6's....although I think the LE's get an unfair shake)
2. Originality (original parts, paints, etc....) An original car with low miles is worth more to the collector.


In the end, it is your car though. I'm doing with mine what I please. I'll be going the MS with ITB's route because I am tired of dinking with a 40 year old D-jet system.

[nine9three]

Huh. I haven't met anyone like that, are these people active any place other than the SDS forums? I sure don't know everyone, of course, but I know a lot of people who've switched to MS from other systems, no one who's pulled a MS system for SDS.

I think Nate actually answered your question. SDS is just that, simple. If it works for you, and you have no need for any other capabilities and never will then fine, not a problem, use it. In counterpoint MS will be there with all the capabilities you need, no matter how you or your motor evolve. More capabilities inevitably means more variables, so more complexity. You can't get away from that, but it's more complicated because it does more. Other side of that coin, be sure SDS will do everything you need, now and in the future, before you commit to it.

I scan a lot of threads and wasn't even aware of a SDS forum. I have read Raby say he is a proponent of SDS. I'm very interested in building a large displacement engine and unsure of an induction system. These types of threads are very helpful. Nate, when I get to that stage maybe we can collaborate together on a MS system?

[DBCooper]

The forums I mentioned are on the SDS website, so they're very SDS-centric.

It's true that Megasquirt can be too complex for some occasional hobbyists, in the same way that rust repair or an engine rebuild can be too much. It's the same old "no pain, no gain," and you need to evaluate that yourself, if you're up to the challenge. That's why people like Nate and Mario are so good to know, they make that hurdle manageable.

[kwlane]

I have a set CB fuel injection throttle bodies that I was today trying to figure out what to do with as megasquirt seemed to complicated. Now think I might keep them if can get more information on the megasquirt system that you used.

[aircooledtechguy]

This system brings the 914 into the modern world.

To me, this is what MS represents. Modern world control on classic cars. This is exactly why I converted my own car in '08. When you hop in your late model daily driver, you don't have to fill your trunk with tools and spares do you?? You shouldn't have to carry points, caps, rotors, fuel pumps, MPSs, injectors, switches and relays the way most do when driving to WCR or any destination out of town.

I'm very interested in building a large displacement engine and unsure of an induction system. These types of threads are very helpful. Nate, when I get to that stage maybe we can collaborate together on a MS system?

Absolutely!

I have a set CB fuel injection throttle bodies that I was today trying to figure out what to do with as megasquirt seemed to complicated. Now think I might keep them if can get more information on the megasquirt system that you used.

Don't sell 'em; use them!! Do your homework and ask question of those who have done it. Don't be afraid to try something new. That's how we learn.

MS has many versions with an unbelievable amount of capabilities. It's easy to get caught-up in the latest and the greatest. In reality MS2 V3 with wasted spark is all most folks will ever need to have a smooth driving car. With my own car I'm running MS3X w/ full sequential injection and spark w/ LS2 coils and I probably didn't need it. For me it was an investment in learning and tuning. But I'm also running a pretty radical cam and it's smooth as glass at 900 rpms with no lumping along or high idle.

[AndyB]

We also added a Tangerine Racing Evo IV.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif)

[aircooledtechguy]

We also added a Tangerine Racing Evo IV.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif)

Oops! I didn't take a photo of it out of the car. I only have this one of the O2 bung/sensor I added just after the 2 exit pipes merge into one. We got a really pretty good sniff from there.

[era vulgaris]

What's the ballpark "all in" cost of doing something like this? $5k? More? Less?
And what's the complexity of install? Is it necessary to pull the engine?

[MarioVelotta]

What's the ballpark "all in" cost of doing something like this? $5k? More? Less?
And what's the complexity of install? Is it necessary to pull the engine?

It really depends if you are able to install and tune yourself or if you will be using a shop to perform the install and tune for you. This particular package was about 3k. Since the car already had EFI it didn't need all my normal parts. If you where to add in 4 days of labor, 5K would be pretty accurate.

That would include the initial tuning plus a few days in the shop to adjust cold starts, hot restarts, etc,. The stuff you only have limited time to adjust each day once the car has been run for any period of time. That's why it's the hardest and often left as-is. Also, those can't be addressed properly until the main ignition and fuel maps have been tuned.

The install is like putting in dual carbs, you just have some extra wiring to do. But with the harness I provide that isn't a big deal IMO and as close to Plug and Play as possible. As Nate stated it all can be done with the engine in the car. But the crank trigger wheel will be more difficult to install.

[era vulgaris]

What's the ballpark "all in" cost of doing something like this? $5k? More? Less?
And what's the complexity of install? Is it necessary to pull the engine?

It really depends if you are able to install and tune yourself or if you will be using a shop to perform the install and tune for you. This particular package was about 3k. Since the car already had EFI it didn't need all my normal parts. If you where to add in 4 days of labor, 5K would be pretty accurate.

That would include the initial tuning plus a few days in the shop to adjust cold starts, hot restarts, etc,. The stuff you only have limited time to adjust each day once the car has been run for any period of time. That's why it's the hardest and often left as-is. Also, those can't be addressed properly until the main ignition and fuel maps have been tuned.

The install is like putting in dual carbs, you just have some extra wiring to do. But with the harness I provide that isn't a big deal IMO and as close to Plug and Play as possible. As Nate stated it all can be done with the engine in the car. But the crank trigger wheel will be more difficult to install.

Very interesting! I'm going to have to do a lot more reading on this. My old 1.7, although it had Djet, was the first FI car I'd had in a long time, and I think it spoiled me. I'm running DRLA 40's right now, and I think I'm really getting tired of the fiddling.

One of the few things I truly love about carbs though is the sound. And from the video it sounds like you still have that roar with the ITB's.

[aircooledtechguy]

The crank trigger was a bit of a challenge to install with the engine in place but was totally doable from below with the fwd tins removed.

[MarioVelotta]

One of the few things I truly love about carbs though is the sound. And from the video it sounds like you still have that roar with the ITB's.

You definitely got the sound!

[Michelj13]

Awesome. I have about 600 miles on my MS system and love it. It starts up so easily, no fuel smells. Only complaint is a noisy fuel pump. I needed to raise idle spped to about 1050rpm to mask the fuel pump noise.

Do you have photos of fuel pump installation?

[aircooledtechguy]

Awesome. I have about 600 miles on my MS system and love it. It starts up so easily, no fuel smells. Only complaint is a noisy fuel pump. I needed to raise idle spped to about 1050rpm to mask the fuel pump noise.

Do you have photos of fuel pump installation?

Normally, if there was an old 3-port pump, this would be replaced by a Walbro pump which is a great pump, but they are pretty loud. Fortunately, this car already had a Bosch L-jet style pump mounted in the factory location under the tank (it was a '76 model) that appeared to be perfect shape, so we kept it in place working with it's original wiring.

I have a Walbro pump on my own car and am familiar with these noisy pumps. I was able to quiet mine down some by using the foam sleeve between the mounting clamps. I also used the rubber isolators that VW/Porsche used to mount their factory pumps to the chassis. Mine is now just a bit louder that the factory Bosch pump.