I was given a Metal Lathe., Help me choose projects. Options

[Series9]

threaded chuck?

Rich

Negative.

[Series9]

It looks like the tail stock is an MT3. The numbers don't match the chart exactly, but pretty close.

The drill chuck, however, doesn't really match any of it. It does appear to have a taper that's about 1" long and about .670" at the big end.

[Darren C]

From the pictures it looks like you need a Morse to Jacobs taper spindle as Nathan also thought.
My advice is swap the chuck for one that takes a Jacobs key. The self locking chuck like you have are great in a hand drill, not so good in a lathe. You cant tighten them up very well and then they can "work-lock" and then you cant get the darn things undone.

[nathansnathan]

Sounds to me like mt3 to jt6, which is "2811A37" part number at mcmaster.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/images1.mcmaster.com-11782-1455830079.1.png)

[Series9]

From the pictures it looks like you need a Morse to Jacobs taper spindle as Nathan also thought.
My advice is swap the chuck for one that takes a Jacobs key. The self locking chuck like you have are great in a hand drill, not so good in a lathe. You cant tighten them up very well and then they can "work-lock" and then you cant get the darn things undone.

I think I agree with that. This chuck looks and feels really nice, but there are no numbers on it (I mean no identifying marks of any sort) and it might be good for light duty work, but I can see how it could get stuck.

Shopping for MT3 keyed tail chuck....

[Mueller]

Nice, making chips and a part for a project car even better!

[Porsche930dude]

my brother just got a little 6" atlas . its smaller than he wanted but it was cheap. he rebuilt it and is starting to make stuff now. he's been watching utube videos for years so he knows alot. weve been melting aluminum down and making soup can ingots to turn down into stuff. he already made a 4 slot pulley that the lathe was missing now he is going to attempt to make some gears that its missing. He hasnt tried turning steel yet I think hes a little afraid

[Darren C]

my brother just got a little 6" atlas . its smaller than he wanted but it was cheap. he rebuilt it and is starting to make stuff now. he's been watching utube videos for years so he knows alot. weve been melting aluminum down and making soup can ingots to turn down into stuff. he already made a 4 slot pulley that the lathe was missing now he is going to attempt to make some gears that its missing. He hasnt tried turning steel yet I think hes a little afraid

40 years ago when I was at school my metalshop teacher (who inspired me to go into engineering) said to the class...

"The lathe is the only machine created by the hand of man that can reproduce itself"

I went on to build my own lathe between age 14 & 16 as my project for my "o level in mechanical engineering workshop theory & practice" I made the headstock, tailstock and carriage in wood, cast it in aluminium using sand boxes and then used the school lathe as a mill. I turned everything, I made the chuck, lead screw, saddles, tool holders...absolutely everything.
It was about a 3ft long when finished and powered by clamping in a hand drill into the basic gear box that I'd made.
Very crude looking back; but hey I was only a kid making his first lathe.

[Series9]

Will someone explain the different uses for these different angles?

[Darren C]

It’s all to do with available clearance between what your turning and the position of components of the lathe.
Most standard tip tools are design to sit in one position (90 degrees to the lathe centre) in this normal position the angle of the tip is optimised to turn down or face off.
If you have a rotating tool post you can fit several tools and spin it in 90 degree increments to change between say a parting off tool and a facing off tool. The clamp mechanism allows a small say 10 degree misalignment from North, East, South, West positions where you can clamp it correctly. However if you try and set it a 45 degrees (NE) for example, the clamp device doesn’t lock correctly and the tool will be off Height.
It’s always good practice with a tip tool (particularly with radius end tools) to change the angle slightly between jobs so that it’s not cutting on the same point all the time.
Different finishes can be achieved with different tool angles. (These are angles in the horizontal plane and can be described as angle of attack)
Different angles in the vertical plane (called “Rake”) come into play with HSS tools especially with differing materials. On a soft material such as aluminium you need a larger rake angle than for steel.
Large radius ended tools of HSS are commonly used for a fine smooth shiny finish
Tipped ceramic tools tend to be pre manufactured by material type where best speed and material are specified.
This begins to get complicated when you adjust the tool slide to produce tapers or to reach around the job to gain access to turn awkward shapes, turn with the lathe spinning in reverse or Left hand turn. That’s why you can buy tools with various position tips in the holder. It’s to optimise the angle of attack that the tip of the tool makes contact with the job under various positions and types of RH or LH turning where the tool post angle is not at 90 degrees to lathe centre.
That said some angles of attack vary dependent on the material they are designed for in addition to having differing rakes.
All of this means nothing if you don’t have the correct speed and feed for the material.

Looking at the photo from left to right; the 6 tools run RH, LH, LH, Universal, RH

Hope this is of help.

[Series9]

Good information. Thank you.

I think I understand angle of attack, but I need more on rake. While I understand the rake plane, what is an example of zero rake vs high rake?

Does the tool always intersect the piece at the 270 degree point in the rotation? (270 being the point that represents west if you look at the chuck end-on).


Also, when you say Right-hand and Left-hand, is that a reference to the direction the tool is moving against the piece or the direction the piece is spinning in the lathe?

I'm under the assumption that almost everything is turned in a CCW direction at the chuck.

[veekry9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAo0xmDQ-kI


https://www.google.ca/#q=turning++4130+shaft
https://www.google.ca/search?q=turning+4340...bEaDPIQ_AUIBigB
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/welding-4130.html

Machining Fundamentals
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Machining+Fu...EM_xr18tvY8M%3A

The design of the lathe makes the CCW rotation load the the toolpost and carriage in compression.(pushing down)
For similar CW loads a secondary toolpost can be installed on the other side of the CL.
As an example,during the '70s while using VDF engine lathes,a shaft similar to the one in the ytub above was ruf turned in conventional
ccw rotation using all 6 corners of the indexing toolpost,heavy production turning.
http://www.carboloy.com/company.html
Subsequently,the final finishing passes were turned with a cw rot and the hydraulic tracing attachment installation,whereby the carriage radius was servo controlled.
A 1:1 scale template was held in sync with the actual shaft and guided the rear crosslide with several paths to the correct dimensions.
The point of all this is that every year since,there has been progress in materials and methods and a steep learning curve is needed to 'bone up'.
Basic,elementary concepts are easily available freely,worthwhile study for the proper use of the machinery.

A horror story:
In 1979 a recently purchased cnc mill was programmed to zig instead of zag by an error of polarity,negative,not positive.
The 7/8" drill in the spindle,about a foot long,snapped off at the shank and struck the operator,the shop owner,between the eyes at the bridge of his nose.
He fell to one knee,hand over his face then staggered to his feet,a golf ball sized lump swelling on his face.
I got him an emergency ice pack from the freezer,and he left for a few days off.
What I mean is,is that even expert machinists make mistakes,had the broken drill penetrated his eye,it would have been fatal.
The energy needed to break the drill and travel the 20-30 feet after striking him,was from the rapid travel rate of the mill and the M42 steel strength of the drill.
Prepare yourself for the proper use of machine tools,period.
Exercise caution and due diligence and read the manuals,warnings and safety notices.
Never run the machine without safety glasses or masks.
Never.

/
ref.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x-157-VDF-S500-...wAAAOSwstxVQ8sM
 20__x_157__VDF__S500__Engine_Lathe_w_Tracer_Attachment_27503___eBay.html ( 248.74k ) Number of downloads: 381




https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...dit+II+cnc+mill
https://www.google.ca/search?q=lathe+tool+g...-lXnx3BrxfKM%3A
http://www.metalsdepot.com/catalog_cart_view.php?msg=
http://www.ingersoll-imc.com/en/index.htm
https://www.google.ca/search?q=carbide+inse...gB&dpr=1.75
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The industry is so vast that learning the right question is in order.
The grinding of HSS and brazed carbide tools is a whole subject in itself,safety paramount.
Learning to sharpen drill bits to a tested standard is a part of a machine trade training course.
Turning a simple shaft to +/-0.0003 was demonstrated,the experience evident.
Simple errors would get it wrong and useless,making scrap for double or triple loss.
Safety errors cost more than money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otifkak5RMA
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Good stories of success by innovation and effort.
Just when you think you learned something new,something new must be learned.
The RH,LH refers to the offset of the tool's shank,ie:a left moving tool has a RH offset shank.

http://www.cmsna.com/blog/2013/01/history-...ncept-was-born/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-m...er-tape-174794/
https://www.cncci.com/resources/tips.htm
http://www.fadalvmcparts.com/history.html
http://www.haascnc.com/home.asp#gsc.tab=0
http://www.heidenhain.com/en_US/products-a...s/cnc-controls/
http://www.fanucamerica.com/
http://w3.siemens.com/mcms/mc-systems/en/a...k-controls.aspx
http://www.toshiba-machine.com/departmentlanding.aspx?dept=2
http://www.fidia.it/en/prodotti_en.htm
http://www.selca.it/index.php?id=selca
http://www.gruppoparpas.com/products.aspx
http://www.fptindustrie.com/en/products/boring_machines/3/
https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files...13_en_en-US.pdf
https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files...annig_Guide.pdf

Information Overload.
There is so much data to absorb,a small step approach can be effective.Training is crucial,if only for the safety lessons.
Buy a programmable calculator to do the formulas for feeds/speeds/hp/ruf-rms/,just to be in the ballpark,on the same page.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=programmable...SUw0c1UIRqdM%3A
An actual 'real' tool grinder is needed to prepare hss or brazed carbide tools for turning,with the correct abrasive wheels.
Learning of the proper terminology and functions of the lathe controls and components is step #1.
Cutting rates are the next subject,tool geometry the next after that and so on.

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http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTCNCDictDeflecttoFollow.htm
A good single source of info,handy helpful references for machining.
/

[Darren C]

Good information. Thank you.

I think I understand angle of attack, but I need more on rake. While I understand the rake plane, what is an example of zero rake vs high rake?

Does the tool always intersect the piece at the 270 degree point in the rotation? (270 being the point that represents west if you look at the chuck end-on).


Also, when you say Right-hand and Left-hand, is that a reference to the direction the tool is moving against the piece or the direction the piece is spinning in the lathe?

I'm under the assumption that almost everything is turned in a CCW direction at the chuck.

Rake angle is adjustable dependent on the metal, most metal can be cut like wood does with a plane. The shavings curl off the wood if a sharp plane is used in long continuous shaving pieces to leave a smooth finish. With a soft metal a larger rake angle tool tends to do the same. Harder metals can be too hard to cut with "shavings" without immense speeds and pressure, so the rake angle is less and they cut with "small chips" not shavings...This is the best way I can think to explain it to you at the moment.
RH & LH is the direction the tool takes not the rotation of the lathe. Normal turning is RH where the tool travels towards the chuck. LH is where the tool starts near the chuck and moves away from it.
99% of stuff is turned with the CCW direction, but for access reasons or some awkward shape piece there is the ability to reverse the rotation. This is also very common when thread turning.

I'm still concerned for you....

Operating a lathe is a little like flying an airplane.....you can ask 1000's of questions, watch multiple films and read 1000's of books.....but when you start you really need someone by your side to stop you making dangerous mistakes, watching over your shoulder to guide you and prevent things going wrong before they do.

Why don't you contact your local school or college and see if you can enroll in some basic class for turning...you seem like a switched on guy and I think a few hours with a tutor would be great for you.

[Series9]

RH & LH is the direction the tool takes not the rotation of the lathe. Normal turning is RH where the tool travels towards the chuck. LH is where the tool starts near the chuck and moves away from it.

That is backwards to me. If the tool is traveling toward the chuck, it's moving to the left. Why would that be RH?

I'm happy that came up, because the directions you put on the tool picture I posted seemed backwards.

And again, please give me a simple explanation of "high rake". I assume zero rake would be directly perpendicular to the piece. Is high rake tip up?

I would love to go take a class, but I've spent hours trying to find one in Central FL and have come up empty. All the tech schools have shifted to IT and no longer offer machine classes of any sort.


As for the flying comment, I'm an 8000-hour jet captain and firmly believe flying a 172 only on book knowledge would be easier and safer than trying to learn this lathe without previous experience.

.....but I will.

[Darren C]

LH & RH tools and examples of where they are used.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i265.photobucket.com-18255-1456081775.1.jpg)

Rake angles (side and back rake)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i265.photobucket.com-18255-1456081775.2.gif)

[Series9]

LH & RH tools and examples of where they are used.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i265.photobucket.com-18255-1456081775.1.jpg)

That is the single, most useful piece of information I have been given.

From basic observation, I still think LH and RH are reversed, but if that's how it is, then that's how it's is.

LH tools move right and RH tools move left. Okay.


The rake angle diagram, however, actually made things worse.

Simply show me an example of a high rake tool and a zero rake tool, please.


I appreciate the contributions to this thread very much, but you guys are seriously mixing PhD-level lathe processes with middle-school, with high-school, with 2nd grade....

Right now, I'm in lathe Kindergarten. Let's keep it on that level for the moment. I've always been a quick study, but I didn't start my flying career by sitting down in a jet.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Series9]

More questions:

How do you run a finishing pass with this tool if you need to complete the pass at a 90* angle on the right side of the pass?

A good example of the need to do this would exist on crankshaft main journals.

[Series9]

The direction of travel on this makes no sense to me.

Do you have to set it up so the cutting surface is precisely parallel to the intended finish?

How do you begin the cut? Do you move the tool in to full depth and then move it to the face to start cutting? That scenario would require a lot of tool surface cutting all at once.

It seems like you would move the tool from the outside toward the center.

[veekry9]

Scope,
the overall scope of the task at hand is knowing the the machine will hurt you if not operated correctly,as I've pointed out.
Evidently,a new career in shafting is not in the plan,but obviously if the standards of reference are unknown to you,the links have all the info available.
And yes,everyone who has taken the curriculum has asked the why of the LH/RH question,it's good that you asked.
I believe it came about a few hundred years ago at the very beginning of the 'industrial revolution',while turning bronze cannons,by hand.
The tools were used in a way similar to wood spindle makers,the tool levered to the right hand to turn left,the iron tool shank offset right.
The right hand thread derived it's name from the same roots,the lathe CCW rotating.

Take note that some of the drawings,from 1914 as above,are greatly exaggerated for visual clarity.
The difference between the lh and rh is annoted,for those falling off the turnip wagon.
(A stunt was to draw a face on the back of his head,stumping some beginners!)

http://www.nist.gov/
http://www.nspe.org/
http://www.astm.org/
http://www.sae.org/
https://www.ansi.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSI_Group
http://www.iso.org/iso/home.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_(mathematics)
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...-8#q=metallurgy
https://www.google.ca/search?q=involute+spl...fuID7UQ_AUIBigB
https://www.google.ca/search?q=involute+spl...h&q=splines
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/6...nvolute-splines
https://www.google.ca/search?q=thread+turni...1URScmeD2ycM%3A
https://www.google.ca/search?q=lathe+tool+r...zPDxLma0rFDM%3A
http://www.amazon.com/Eshbachs-Handbook-En...r/dp/0470085789
http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/pages/default.aspx


Here is a demo of the spline or involute gear forms possible on your lathe.
And how he did it,a most useful idea,though an additional heavy disc brake would ensure the stability of the chuck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqreWsmXG4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgGXQUeYNKw
Yes,I used this technique recently a few years ago on a heavy 12' X 8' 20T platen.Broaching or shaping by cnc,a keyway or spline into a stationary bore.

I also like the RC heavy equipment he built.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt8VfgfWa54

The answers to the most basic questions are on page 2 of the manual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjsfs49SRbc

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[veekry9]

Dedicated tooling and machinery,expressly for the manufacture of crankshafts.
A manual lathe can be used,however,it is a long laborious and expensive process of many steps.
The tools are designed for their single purpose,hence the designation of their names.
The toolpost on the lathe must be indicated to index true,the tooltip must be at the vertical centerline of the shaft.
While threading shafts,the compound slide must be set at the correct angle and zeroed.
The stops must be set to avoid crashes,the speeds and feeds calculated beforehand.
The correct operation of the lathe's feedscrew and halfnut phase dial must be known.
The use of the headstock gearbox also must be understood.
Boring tubes and holes is a primary task,broaching or scraping rifling grooves another.
Drilling deep holes,undercutting and relieving bores is more.
Heavy grooving tools are the methods traditionally used to ruf out crank billet bars.
Offset and steadyrest turning and grinding of cranks is a whole science and skillset by itself.
A 4340 forged 16' X 5' stroke marine crank was done a decade ago in the shop,from scratch to ground finish.
Many tons of chips made,without error,a thing of beauty,by one guy,who had survived a bad accident in '04.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...fts&tbm=vid
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...rge+crankshafts

Some useful drops of info,the iso tooling from Walter is just what you might need.
Other vendors sell competing tools too,so buy the lowest price possible.
As mentioned earlier,the hss and brazed carbide tooling is cheap,but requires expert grinding to achieve good results.
These tools,with the quickchange holders,will have you up and running in a jiffy,painlessly.
Jurassic,some retro tools for the small hobbyist user,making the choice easy.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...%20and%20speeds
http://www.walter-tools.com/en-us/tools/st...es/default.aspx
http://www.jurassictools.com/store/tools-engineering-etc

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Walter:external::screw type:
http://waltertools.blaetterkatalog.de/gc2012/en/#page_A80

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cXBXewS4IM
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