Ford Solenoid Hot Start installation instructions, Mark Henry's method Options

[Mark Henry]

Just food for thought, or should I say math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vdrop = IR, basic voltage drop law.

12v at 8 amps on a 12 foot run with 22awg wire will see a voltage drop of 25.83%.
That 12v is down to 8.9v, border line for kicking the Bosch solenoid.
That's not counting the resistance of the connectors, fuse box, switch, age, heat, etc.

I don't know the actual length of the run or if that's the correct size wire, etc., etc.....but its a good enough example to show that a DC circuit has substantial losses even when new.

note same calculation with 20awg wire loss is 16.25%
I'd say obviously heat is a major contributor as this is more than often a "hot start issue".

[HalfMoon]

Just food for thought, or should I say math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vdrop = IR
12v at 8 amps on a 12 foot run with 22awg wire will see a voltage drop of 25.83%.
That 12v is down to 8.9v, border line for kicking the Bosch solenoid.
That's not counting the resistance of the connectors, fuse box, switch, age, heat, etc.

I don't know the actual length of the run or if that's the correct size wire, etc., etc.....but its a good enough example to show that a DC circuit has substantial losses even when new.

All I know is this-
I'm v-8 converted and I use a hi torque starter.
My battery is mounted in the forward trunk with quite a long cable shot.
During summer I often would get the dreaded hot start no start problem.
After this mod, the problem was completely solved and I have never had a hot start no start again.
Whatever the fun arguments for and opposed are, I'm here to say this mod flat out works and I don't give a damn why, lol!

[Lucky9146]

Just an FYI

That I was about to order the Standard SS-588 on Amazon for $34.26 with free ship and then decided to google Standard Ignition SS-588 and a bunch of places came up with lesser prices.

Ordered from Walmart.com with free store pick up $21.40 and $1.66 Tax for a total l $23.06
Good deal and easy pick up. They would also ship to the house for about $5 still less than Amazon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/white914.jpg)

[HalfMoon]

So I've run across a (self created) problem and I wonder if Mark might chime in for a solution?

Previously I had wired in a Ford relay on my sbc converted 914 with a standard alternator per Mark's diagram (an-noted below) as I had been experiencing the well known "hot start" problem.
The fix worked great!
Then I decided to add a track "kill switch" mounted where track workers can get to it in an emergency and therein lies my problem.
When I wire it up per the manufacturer's directions (my diagram below), it works great with one exception...my hot start problem has returned.
Anyone got any idea's?

Marks diagram (an-noted) with no kill switch. Hot start problem solved.


My diagram including addition of a kill switch. Hot start problem returns

[StarBear]

This is real simple to make and crimpers should be a tool in every car guys tool kit, but if if you really think there's a demand for this I could offer a complete plug and play wiring kit for something like $30 shipped USA and Canada.

If I were to offer a kit I'd look into using better strain relief connectors.
You would still have to buy a solenoid and do the mount mod.

Mark - Awesome thread and photos! I'm FINALLY getting around to doing this mod. Have you thought/decided about such a kit? would be interested. Otherwise, would merely wire-brushing the connections/connectors be sufficient for a car that otherwise is running/starting just fine? Thanks.

[Mark Henry]

So I've run across a (self created) problem and I wonder if Mark might chime in for a solution?

Previously I had wired in a Ford relay on my sbc converted 914 with a standard alternator per Mark's diagram (an-noted below) as I had been experiencing the well known "hot start" problem.
The fix worked great!
Then I decided to add a track "kill switch" mounted where track workers can get to it in an emergency and therein lies my problem.
When I wire it up per the manufacturer's directions (my diagram below), it works great with one exception...my hot start problem has returned.
Anyone got any idea's?

Marks diagram (an-noted) with no kill switch. Hot start problem solved.


My diagram including addition of a kill switch. Hot start problem returns

Right away I can see the battery wired wrong, battery + goes to the starter big post, in your configuration the alternator + wire also goes to the starter big post.

Kill switch shouldn't be wired into the starter, unless it's a battery disconnect, then it should be wired inline on the big battery cable. This needs to have no other wires between the battery + post and the disconnect in. All factory + wires should be after the disconnect out.

Only exception to above is some will run a seperate wire before the disconnect (direct to + post) for the radio clock.

[Mark Henry]

This is how my '67 bug is wired.
Also note the metal bracket on the ford solenoid must be grounded.

[North Coast Jim]

Mark I had this "start problem" and found your thread on adding the Ford solenoid. Since adding this option this spring car starts on every try. Thanks for help.

[HalfMoon]

So I've run across a (self created) problem and I wonder if Mark might chime in for a solution?

Previously I had wired in a Ford relay on my sbc converted 914 with a standard alternator per Mark's diagram (an-noted below) as I had been experiencing the well known "hot start" problem.
The fix worked great!
Then I decided to add a track "kill switch" mounted where track workers can get to it in an emergency and therein lies my problem.
When I wire it up per the manufacturer's directions (my diagram below), it works great with one exception...my hot start problem has returned.
Anyone got any idea's?

Marks diagram (an-noted) with no kill switch. Hot start problem solved.


My diagram including addition of a kill switch. Hot start problem returns

Right away I can see the battery wired wrong, battery + goes to the starter big post, in your configuration the alternator + wire also goes to the starter big post.

Kill switch shouldn't be wired into the starter, unless it's a battery disconnect, then it should be wired inline on the big battery cable. This needs to have no other wires between the battery + post and the disconnect in. All factory + wires should be after the disconnect out.

Only exception to above is some will run a seperate wire before the disconnect (direct to + post) for the radio clock.

Thanks for the reply-
Unfortunately, when I ran it with the Alt wire to the to the starter solenoid the kill switch failed to work and would not cut off the running car as it should. The only way I was able to make it work was to connect the Alt. wire to the switched side of the kill switch but then the hot start problem reappeared (either that or a new problem).

[Mark Henry]

You either still have something wired wrong or you damaged something from incorrect wiring. It doesn't matter if the alternator + wire goes to the big starter post or switched side on the disconnect. With the disconnect you don't want it to go direct to the battery as it defeats the purpose of the kill switch.

The disconnect, are you using one of the cheap plastic body china switches?
I only use the heavy duty metal body Moroso disconnect.

[HalfMoon]

You either still have something wired wrong or you damaged something from incorrect wiring. It doesn't matter if the alternator + wire goes to the big starter post or switched side on the disconnect. With the disconnect you don't want it to go direct to the battery as it defeats the purpose of the kill switch.

The disconnect, are you using one of the cheap plastic body china switches?
I only use the heavy duty metal body Moroso disconnect.

Heavy duty Moroso.

[StarBear]

This is real simple to make and crimpers should be a tool in every car guys tool kit, but if if you really think there's a demand for this I could offer a complete plug and play wiring kit for something like $30 shipped USA and Canada.

If I were to offer a kit I'd look into using better strain relief connectors.
You would still have to buy a solenoid and do the mount mod.

Mark; did/do you ever offer that kit? Not seen it, or is it available through some other source? Thanks!

[Spoke]

So I've run across a (self created) problem and I wonder if Mark might chime in for a solution?

Previously I had wired in a Ford relay on my sbc converted 914 with a standard alternator per Mark's diagram (an-noted below) as I had been experiencing the well known "hot start" problem.
The fix worked great!
Then I decided to add a track "kill switch" mounted where track workers can get to it in an emergency and therein lies my problem.
When I wire it up per the manufacturer's directions (my diagram below), it works great with one exception...my hot start problem has returned.
Anyone got any idea's?

Marks diagram (an-noted) with no kill switch. Hot start problem solved.


My diagram including addition of a kill switch. Hot start problem returns

Right away I can see the battery wired wrong, battery + goes to the starter big post, in your configuration the alternator + wire also goes to the starter big post.

Kill switch shouldn't be wired into the starter, unless it's a battery disconnect, then it should be wired inline on the big battery cable. This needs to have no other wires between the battery + post and the disconnect in. All factory + wires should be after the disconnect out.

Only exception to above is some will run a seperate wire before the disconnect (direct to + post) for the radio clock.

Thanks for the reply-
Unfortunately, when I ran it with the Alt wire to the to the starter solenoid the kill switch failed to work and would not cut off the running car as it should. The only way I was able to make it work was to connect the Alt. wire to the switched side of the kill switch but then the hot start problem reappeared (either that or a new problem).

Not sure how the internals of the kill switch work but the battery should never be removed from the alternator when the engine is running. Modern cars use high power zener diodes as rectifiers in the alternator to snub the inductive kick if the battery is removed from the alternator when running. Almost any electronics in the vehicle could be damaged by the inductive kick.

Automotive test specification ISO 7637-2 pulse 5 is a killer pulse. This pulse is 100V for about 1/2 a second and simulates disconnecting the battery from the alternator.

If you're looking to protect the car from being stolen, you might want to try putting a switch in series with the spark unit, ECU, or the fuel pump. On my 930, I have a tiny toggle switch in series with the fuel pump relay. You can push the car or crank it all day and it won't start.

[HalfMoon]

So I've run across a (self created) problem and I wonder if Mark might chime in for a solution?

Previously I had wired in a Ford relay on my sbc converted 914 with a standard alternator per Mark's diagram (an-noted below) as I had been experiencing the well known "hot start" problem.
The fix worked great!
Then I decided to add a track "kill switch" mounted where track workers can get to it in an emergency and therein lies my problem.
When I wire it up per the manufacturer's directions (my diagram below), it works great with one exception...my hot start problem has returned.
Anyone got any idea's?

Marks diagram (an-noted) with no kill switch. Hot start problem solved.


My diagram including addition of a kill switch. Hot start problem returns

Right away I can see the battery wired wrong, battery + goes to the starter big post, in your configuration the alternator + wire also goes to the starter big post.

Kill switch shouldn't be wired into the starter, unless it's a battery disconnect, then it should be wired inline on the big battery cable. This needs to have no other wires between the battery + post and the disconnect in. All factory + wires should be after the disconnect out.

Only exception to above is some will run a seperate wire before the disconnect (direct to + post) for the radio clock.

Thanks for the reply-
Unfortunately, when I ran it with the Alt wire to the to the starter solenoid the kill switch failed to work and would not cut off the running car as it should. The only way I was able to make it work was to connect the Alt. wire to the switched side of the kill switch but then the hot start problem reappeared (either that or a new problem).

Not sure how the internals of the kill switch work but the battery should never be removed from the alternator when the engine is running. Modern cars use high power zener diodes as rectifiers in the alternator to snub the inductive kick if the battery is removed from the alternator when running. Almost any electronics in the vehicle could be damaged by the inductive kick.

Automotive test specification ISO 7637-2 pulse 5 is a killer pulse. This pulse is 100V for about 1/2 a second and simulates disconnecting the battery from the alternator.

If you're looking to protect the car from being stolen, you might want to try putting a switch in series with the spark unit, ECU, or the fuel pump. On my 930, I have a tiny toggle switch in series with the fuel pump relay. You can push the car or crank it all day and it won't start.

It's a track side kill switch so corner workers can save my life in the event I'm unconscious (a standard op for cars used at the track-mine happens to also be streeted).
I have no ECU, but I like the idea of taking power from my dizzy to effectively kill the cars ability to continue to run in the event I can not turn off the key switch. That said, even if my alt was removed from the kill switch functionality, since it would then be relayed from the solenoid on the starter (in Marks diagram) would it not have the same effect as removing power from the alt while the car is running when the car is turned off with the key? Or does the relay prevent a spike from going back to the system?

[Mark Henry]

I wouldn't worry about the engine running after a crash, usually the engine will stall as the car was in gear, the fuel pump running is the bigger issue.
You can get a early 80's rabbit CIS fuel pump relay that runs off the tach signal, but it won't work off of an MSD. You could add a Ashlock Tachadapt to work the rabbit relay with an MSD.
Or you could run a simple DTDP relay off of the oil pressure switch.

If you need the part number of the rabbit relay I can find it for you.

[Mark Henry]

The Ford solenoid just fixed the no start issue in my sons '82 Audi coupe with a new looking Bosch starter.
On FB early Audi group I was told to replace the starter, ignition switch and/or the wiring from the ignition switch, thru the fuse box and the relay box to the starter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
Sound familiar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

30 minutes and $20 later... problem solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[brcacti]

Mark Henry, I'll come up to Canada and pay you to do it..................hehehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) JUST kidding, looooong drive. Thanks to ALL who gave such valuable information.

[StarBear]

Ditto to several above and kudos to MH. Did mine this Spring - started every time this past summer. Easy and cheap; used same wires and (cleaned) connectors, so fast, too.

[Mark Henry]

Mark Henry, I'll come up to Canada and pay you to do it..................hehehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) JUST kidding, looooong drive. Thanks to ALL who gave such valuable information.

I accept beer money (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[oakdalecurtis]

i checked with Mark on the actual relay he used, I wanted to buy one new, not a used wrecking yard one. Mark informed me that it is an 12 v, SW-3, B6AZ-11450-A, ordered one on Amazon for $20. The tab it came with allowed me to attach it directly to the starter bolt as recommended with no bending required. Here's a few pics of the finished install. My car starts so fast now it's scary!
Thanks Mark!