Tracking the 914 - Need some street love too..., Turning this into a regular thing... Options

[infraredcalvin]

Justin, you are definitely in the right track. At the track I was able to pick the brain of an ex-andial engine builder. First thing he said was that there was a big restriction somewhere, gotta start looking at the heads. At the time I hadn’t realized I was making all that torque before 3500, but we did chat about the cam timing really only affecting at what rpm the tq hits (I know I’m simplifying and summarizing).

Going to start with what you mentioned and I’ll report back. I already have a private track day booked for oct, so she needs to be back in action by then, possibly just with torque curve moved to a usable rpm…

Temps were hot at the track, up to 107 on pavement per the dyno info. Engine ran a bit warm at 250, I need to shroud cooler.

She handled heavy, but I’m used to my old narrow body car, weights 400 lbs more too. No body roll but I think brakes are dragging again, need another good flush.

[Justinp71]

I see a few pages back you already did a leak down with good results. Could do a compression check and compare the numbers to other builds? The high torq on the dyno does suggest you probably have decent compression.

Hmm... What is the case number? Maybe he re-used stock small port 80-83 3.0 heads and that is restricting flow? Still should be over 165 hp... It would be good to pull the intakes off and measure the intake ports when convenient so you can get all your motor specs.

Also I think a 964 cam may be a bit mild here, that is a popular mod on 3.0's with fuel injection pistons. Still think it would make more power though. You could also take off your valve covers and measure your lift with a dial caliper. Just make sure to adjust for the rocker ratio if measuring the valve. You could really gain some power with some new DC racing cams, assuming it does not have fuel injection pistons. http://www.drcamshafts.com/911profiles.htm.

I am running a DC40 cam much less lobe separation and more duration, you could do maybe a DC60 or even more??

Are you running merged exhaust pipes?

[infraredcalvin]

Ready for drop, ugh, had hoped to get a bit further this weekend than just draining oil…

[Justinp71]

Btw, what oil do you like to run? I am thinking of trying VR1 next. I'm on Mobil 1 15-50 but I have a few wet spots on this brand new motor (I like it otherwise) wondering if they will go away with VR1.

What's your plan on the motor, going to go thru it some?

[infraredcalvin]

VR1 20/50 changed every other race. Motor runs a bit warm with it, although shrouding around cooler is non existent now. I’ll be changing that. I get some weeping around the rocker cover nuts, but not enough to drip.

I’m going to post up to the PP engine forum, see if anyone can help. In the meantime I plan on dropping engine, doing another leak down - should be fine, but easy enough to do when out (I forgot to do a compression test before I drained the oil). Also will measure lift, maybe see what cams are in there, then finally check cam timing. Cam timing should address the early torque, but I don’t think I’ll find 100 hp there unless one is way off. Earlier, somebody mentioned one cam my be 180 deg off, that would certainly be cause for such a big loss. Will also measure intake and exhaust ports. Get an idea of what is really in there.

[infraredcalvin]

Since everybody loves a dyno vid, here are the three dyno pulls from the sheet above:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXccX_duoEI

[Justinp71]

What's interesting about your dyno is the horsepower is not going up at all between 3200 and 4500. You can see on this dyno of a 3.2 with bigger cams even on his first lean run in blue he gained alot of power here. Not sure what to make of it, but seems to point to something.

[infraredcalvin]

That is an interesting observation, if you look at my afr graphs I have a plunge (rich spike). During that rpm range, then it comes back into “good” fuel/air territory. Perhaps too much fuel during that period?

[infraredcalvin]

Here we go, posted to the bird engine build forum, here’s the link if anyone wants to follow.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-...ml#post11432437

Any comments still welcome here too!

[Justinp71]

Cool, good place to post it. After building a few flat sixes I am curious as to what they/you find. Rennsport may be another place, not sure I don't go there too often.

Did you find much metal in the oil when you drained it? That could be a sign of a cam going flat, which could also make sense to me.

[infraredcalvin]

No metal, but need to cut open the filter still.

I had run the carbs dry, pass side died out about 20-30 sec before drivers side, so there’s some tuning lost there. Also exhaust color at ports/ primaries was a bit funny, middle cylinders (2&5) looked a bit washed, or maybe lean, gotta take a few pics and post.

[Justinp71]

I like the comment on the bird about throttle maybe not open all the way? Have you checked that? I know a little late now...

[infraredcalvin]

I like the comment on the bird about throttle maybe not open all the way? Have you checked that? I know a little late now...

I’ve only checked it from the carb side, never by pressing the gas pedal… I can only dream that’s part of the issue. Although there is an aftermarket threaded stop at the accelerator pedal(much longer than stock) installed that has bugged me since day one, maybe it’s set incorrectly…. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[Justinp71]

I like the comment on the bird about throttle maybe not open all the way? Have you checked that? I know a little late now...

I’ve only checked it from the carb side, never by pressing the gas pedal… I can only dream that’s part of the issue. Although there is an aftermarket threaded stop at the accelerator pedal(much longer than stock) installed that has bugged me since day one, maybe it’s set incorrectly…. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Maybe step on the gas and measure how much the cable moves with a caliper, then bolt the trans back on, put on the linkage and move it that same a amount. Then check the carbs?

Or I guess just check the motor out best you can and throw it back in? Seems like you might aswell check the cam timing while it is out. Have you done that before? There is a good article on how to do it in Wayne's engine rebuild book. I guess also check the cam is not 180 off, amongst other things I am sure on your list.

It will be all smiles when you get it running full bore... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

[infraredcalvin]

Been frustrated cause I haven’t had a chance to work on her. It’s looking like this sun I’ll have some time. As far as a 6, yes I have some hands on time with a few, I have most of the tools to work on them, done several head stud removal/repairs, so I am familiar with how to time the cams.

This engine out is a good time to check the valves from my last set, and verify a few parts. Might even get a borescope and take a look at the pistons.

[infraredcalvin]

Ok I'm back! Wow, that pelican thread escalated quickly, lots of good ideas, but then a few of the egos got in the way... regardless, I'm appreciative, and had two known engine builders chime in and offer advice outside of the thread. Most helpful was engine builder/engineer William Knight, nice guy in general, and he offered a great explanation of what he thinks the issue is, and the solution (larger carbs and larger headers to start).

The bird thread guided me to measure and confirm more of the pieces, but I soon came to realize that the PO work has been quite meticulous, and while the part selection and assembly has been well done, the combination was/is completely wrong. As we've all heard before from our own famous engine builder contributor "it's all in the combo". I'm a firm believer in that after this experience, expertise IS value!

Moving on, goal is the get the engine back in the car, get her tuned as well as I can with what I have right now, then slowly work on mods suggested as funds permit.

When funds available I'll be on the lookout for 50 PMOs and 1 3/4 headers... i think we have a few sources among us...

[Justinp71]

Ok I'm back! Wow, that pelican thread escalated quickly, lots of good ideas, but then a few of the egos got in the way... regardless, I'm appreciative, and had two known engine builders chime in and offer advice outside of the thread. Most helpful was engine builder/engineer William Knight, nice guy in general, and he offered a great explanation of what he thinks the issue is, and the solution (larger carbs and larger headers to start).

The bird thread guided me to measure and confirm more of the pieces, but I soon came to realize that the PO work has been quite meticulous, and while the part selection and assembly has been well done, the combination was/is completely wrong. As we've all heard before from our own famous engine builder contributor "it's all in the combo". I'm a firm believer in that after this experience, expertise IS value!

Moving on, goal is the get the engine back in the car, get her tuned as well as I can with what I have right now, then slowly work on mods suggested as funds permit.

When funds available I'll be on the lookout for 50 PMOs and 1 3/4 headers... i think we have a few sources among us...

Ya Knight Racing is who I consulted when I built my motor. I ended up buying new heads from him. The 3.2 I have is a rocket. I actually have more of an issue keeping it cooled down. I also don't like it getting over 230f on the track, I just feel like that is asking for more leaks.

[infraredcalvin]

Ya Knight Racing is who I consulted when I built my motor. I ended up buying new heads from him. The 3.2 I have is a rocket. I actually have more of an issue keeping it cooled down. I also don't like it getting over 230f on the track, I just feel like that is asking for more leaks.

Assuming you had a good experience with William? Sounds like you found the right combo for your car...???

What does your cooling look like? I'm hitting 250 at 100+deg track temps (Fontana in July). It cools back down quickly to 200-220 during a cooldown lap, but I have a med/large cooler up front with no shrouding, Willow in June it would heat up to 220 and hold.

[Justinp71]

Ya Knight Racing is who I consulted when I built my motor. I ended up buying new heads from him. The 3.2 I have is a rocket. I actually have more of an issue keeping it cooled down. I also don't like it getting over 230f on the track, I just feel like that is asking for more leaks.

Assuming you had a good experience with William? Sounds like you found the right combo for your car...???

What does your cooling look like? I'm hitting 250 at 100+deg track temps (Fontana in July). It cools back down quickly to 200-220 during a cooldown lap, but I have a med/large cooler up front with no shrouding, Willow in June it would heat up to 220 and hold.

Yes I talked to him a lot on the phone during the build he was very helpful. I would say right combo yes, I never dyno'ed it but it screams. Definitely much more power than with the stock 3.0 (w/cams) that it was before and I used to think that was fast. I rarely can open it up on the street without feeling like I might go to jail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . I've had some 400hp+ larger cars and it feels faster than those.

For reference I went from a mostly stock 3.0 (had mild cams, headers, weber 40 carbs) to a 3.2 (should have done 3.4) complete rebuild with DC40 cams, large port heads, 1 5/8" headers, Je pistons 9.55 :1 exactly (didn't want to go higher), 46 PMOs and one of the key items according to William was the magnaflow 2in 2out muffler. Exhaust configuration can have a decent impact on these motors I am told. He also recommended 1 3/4" headers but at that point I already had brand new 1 5/8" and they seemed to do well enough.

Only thing was when I got the heads from him one of the intake ports had been repaired and he didn't mention that. It seems to work fine, I was just surprised he hadn't said anything, its possible he had them boxed up on the shelf and forgot to mention it.

For cooling I have the stock GT cooler and shroud. Also have the stock engine cooler. On the street with a cooling fan never goes above 210f (even in 100f weather). At the track it will get up to 230f towards the end of a 15 min session (last time ambient temp was around 85f). I've done some cooling tweaking in hopes to get it down some (better airflow on cooler, wrapped the headers by the oil line, etc...). If I do alot more track in the future I will probably upgrade the cooling. Right now I have a more dedicated track car to beat up and mostly drive on the street.

I think if I remember right you can run up to 250f if you change the oil every track day, I did that with my 3.0 before rebuild and it just seemed like taking it that warm expands the metal more and creates more leaks down the road, but that's just my theory.

[stownsen914]

Glad you got good help on that thread. It was kinda interesting how that thread evolved! William is the man, sounds like you got good advice.

On the cooling, 250 is a little hot. I prefer closer to 200 which is achievable with a good size cooler and good airflow and ducting.