Tracking the 914 - Need some street love too..., Turning this into a regular thing... Options

[infraredcalvin]

Thanks for that, will weigh when pullling apart for the rebuild. They are webers and I think I have that book already. I won’t be able to get into it till this weekend,but here’s a pic of the hats, you can see the drivers bank yellowed from the heat inside…

[slivel]

Thanks for that, will weigh when pullling apart for the rebuild. They are webers and I think I have that book already. I won’t be able to get into it till this weekend,but here’s a pic of the hats, you can see the drivers bank yellowed from the heat inside…

I see that you are running Electromotive ignition. So am I and they have been very reliable. I just hope I don't have a failure because they are no longer in business, I believe. The coils are readily available, though.

[Charles Freeborn]

It’s not
No ECU- no fuel injection

It just a little two inch square wired in line to the power for the AFR system

So when I turn the car power on there is a 30 second delay before my system (also innovate) powers up

Interesting. The Innovate with Bosch O2 sensor (can't recall # off the top) has a built in heater. I had a similar thought and talked to tech about a delay or a wired on-off switch. They said that would actually shorten the life of the sensor. The pre-heater keeps the start up carbons burned off better.

All true - they don't last long as our cars run richer than modern ones. On my street / track 911 with CIS I get about a year of combo use then they fail. The sensor is a consumable.... Occasionally they'll pop up on Amazon in the $80 range but usually around $100. The Chinese knock offs are crap..

[brant]

I was having issues more with the unit than the sensor.

they are very sensitive to voltage.
turning the starter and sucking all of the voltage (small battery) would send the head unit into error mode.

the delay makes the head unit have a happy voltage and not suffer the surging of running the starter for a somewhat finicky and hard to start motor

stopped about 95% of my error codes.

[infraredcalvin]

I see that you are running Electromotive ignition. So am I and they have been very reliable. I just hope I don't have a failure because they are no longer in business, I believe. The coils are readily available, though.

Steve, looks like you have two different vintage boards... the purple anodized one was a later model, not sure if there are any revisions. I picked up a good used board somebody removed for efi just in case.

Mine are the older gold ones, i think they work fine, but I'm trying to figure out how to data log the timing. The signal voltage from the HPV-1 board is too low for my innovate ssi-4 to pickup. It would be nice to see it on a graph with rpm and afr... then i can also accurately tune both plugs.

[Charles Freeborn]

I was having issues more with the unit than the sensor.

they are very sensitive to voltage.
turning the starter and sucking all of the voltage (small battery) would send the head unit into error mode.

the delay makes the head unit have a happy voltage and not suffer the surging of running the starter for a somewhat finicky and hard to start motor

stopped about 95% of my error codes.

Aaahh. Gotcha. Yes, I can see how fluctuating voltages would make other circuits go wonky.

[GregAmy]

Two things.

I've used AEM, Innovate, a couple others. The only good consistent long service I've gotten has come from the Spartan 14 point 7:

https://www.14point7.com/

Hearty, strong signals, long life.

And run all your electronics, data acq, sensors, other voltage-sensitive components off of one of these:

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30?

[technicalninja]

Thanks for the link @GregAmy

Those are pretty cool!

I'm guessing they can be used on a system with power generation (alternator)?

That is an excellent voltage "pre-conditioner" for PC based electronics.

When you "flash" modern modules (install programming) you MUST use a special battery charger that puts out exactly 12.5 volts or you can have strange problems with loading software.

This is an "at all times" voltage conditioner!

Ninja approved!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[slivel]

I see that you are running Electromotive ignition. So am I and they have been very reliable. I just hope I don't have a failure because they are no longer in business, I believe. The coils are readily available, though.

Steve, looks like you have two different vintage boards... the purple anodized one was a later model, not sure if there are any revisions. I picked up a good used board somebody removed for efi just in case.

Mine are the older gold ones, i think they work fine, but I'm trying to figure out how to data log the timing. The signal voltage from the HPV-1 board is too low for my innovate ssi-4 to pickup. It would be nice to see it on a graph with rpm and afr... then i can also accurately tune both plugs.

If you don't have the user manual for the HPV-1, I have the pdf and can send to you. I also have the manual for the later HPX model. Do you have any heat issues with the engine top mounting? Mine stay in a reasonable heat range and use vibration damped mounts.

[infraredcalvin]

I have the manual, not much to it, i appreciate the offer though. I haven’t seen any heat issues, the boards are on 2” or so standoffs. So they sit above the case on a platform. It’s a very clean setup, so I’m hesitant to move at the moment. I haven’t found any issues yet, but i am trying to verify by dataloggiing under street and track conditions…

Thanks @GregAmy , i’m leaning towards trying to simplify my system, although the dork in me gets hung up on logging the data and fine tuning…

[Charles Freeborn]

Two things.

I've used AEM, Innovate, a couple others. The only good consistent long service I've gotten has come from the Spartan 14 point 7:

https://www.14point7.com/

Hearty, strong signals, long life.

And run all your electronics, data acq, sensors, other voltage-sensitive components off of one of these:

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30?

Perfect timing on this. I'm in the market for an AFR. I'll give the 14point7 a try.

[Charles Freeborn]

Two things.

I've used AEM, Innovate, a couple others. The only good consistent long service I've gotten has come from the Spartan 14 point 7:

https://www.14point7.com/

Hearty, strong signals, long life.

And run all your electronics, data acq, sensors, other voltage-sensitive components off of one of these:

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30?

Quick question - which model 14/7 do you use? I need only basic afr for a 4 cyl running carbs.
Thx.

[Charles Freeborn]

Two things.

I've used AEM, Innovate, a couple others. The only good consistent long service I've gotten has come from the Spartan 14 point 7:

https://www.14point7.com/

Hearty, strong signals, long life.

And run all your electronics, data acq, sensors, other voltage-sensitive components off of one of these:

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30?

Quick question - which model 14/7 do you use? I need only basic afr for a 4 cyl running carbs.
Thx.

[GregAmy]

Quick question - which model 14/7 do you use? I need only basic afr for a 4 cyl running carbs

Not clear what you mean? I'm using their Spartan Lamba Controller v2 (older model) with the 0-5V output, comparable to their current Spartan 3 Lite v2 (Lite has no CAN Bus). I use the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor.

https://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-3-lite-v2

In the race car, I do not use an AFR gauge, the output goes into my data acq system to record the AFR and load data for subsequent analysis* and jet tuning.

For the street car, it goes into the Microquirt ECU which uses it for wideband feedback and real-time adjustments, as well as data logging for subsequent map edits (Microsquirt will adjust +/- 5% but is not self-learning long-term, but it will log and compare to target AFR goals to suggest permanent table changes).

GA

*It is my opinion that a driver cannot accurately evaluate AFR while racing, especially given the display is subject to delay and inconsistency among minor throttle changes. So I log the data and evaluate it later for jet changes, typically by reviewing long stretches of constant full-throttle acceleerations over long RPM ranges. You can't do that while driving...

[Charles Freeborn]

Quick question - which model 14/7 do you use? I need only basic afr for a 4 cyl running carbs

Not clear what you mean? I'm using their Spartan Lamba Controller v2 (older model) with the 0-5V output, comparable to their current Spartan 3 Lite v2 (Lite has no CAN Bus). I use the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor.

https://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-3-lite-v2

In the race car, I do not use an AFR gauge, the output goes into my data acq system to record the AFR and load data for subsequent analysis* and jet tuning.

For the street car, it goes into the Microquirt ECU which uses it for wideband feedback and real-time adjustments, as well as data logging for subsequent map edits (Microsquirt will adjust +/- 5% but is not self-learning long-term, but it will log and compare to target AFR goals to suggest permanent table changes).

GA

*It is my opinion that a driver cannot accurately evaluate AFR while racing, especially given the display is subject to delay and inconsistency among minor throttle changes. So I log the data and evaluate it later for jet changes, typically by reviewing long stretches of constant full-throttle acceleerations over long RPM ranges. You can't do that while driving...

Gotcha. I agree - can't accurately evaluate while driving - at least not in a race situation. My car has electro motive ignition so tapping into the tach reading is straight forward enough, but I don't have a TPS of any sort, nor data acquisiton. All the gauges are analog. Is there simple system that can gather even a few minutes of data to then view on a laptop? I'm really trying to not go down the digital route with this car... but I would like to get a more accurate tune than I can get with plug color.

[brant]

I’ve used a gauge on track for years

Even tested “my” red line readings on a dyno and they were the same many times. I only care about redline. I can see. That number when I shift on the straight away easily.

I match that reading with seat of the pants and change jets daily if the weather or humidity changes on a daily basis at the track

Real time numbers give me the ability to change jets without using a lap top

[GregAmy]

Is there simple system that can gather even a few minutes of data to then view on a laptop?

Cheapest way is look for an older Race Technologies DL-1 unit. Those were the thing to have in the early-00s but now, while they're still very capable, everyone is going super-fancy. You can probably pick one up for $100 or so, and many times I see people giving them away for free...in fact, I had two of them last year I gave to a buddy.

With the DL-1 you get RPM input and 7 analog inputs, 3 inputs are 12v full scale, 4 inputs are 5v full scale. Further, it includes a 5V reference output for the sensors. With that setup you could log RPM, use a GM 1bar MAP sensor for load, log oil pressure, oil temperature, and even cylinder head temperature (use the below link for an amplifier to convert the K-Type thermocople we use under the #3 spark plug for 1 0-5V reference into the logger):

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1778?

If you want TPS - useful, but not absolutely necessary if you have a MAP sensor - you could get a "string-pot" and connect that to the throttle linkage.

The DL-1 even includes a GPS and internal accelerometers for track maps, speeds, g-forces, and driver data analysis.

As noted, it's a legacy device but still fully capable; I was using it until last year when I decided to take my digital dash out of the H Production Toyota MR2 (it got wrecked in '23) and install it in the 914. Shows you just how good these things were in the early 00s...

All that capability, for $100 if not free.

https://www.race-technology.com/wiki/index....1/Specification

There's really only one downside to the DL1s: they've surpassed the GPS 1024-week rollover and Race Technologies is no longer supporting it, so no more firmware updates. As a result, all your dates will be 1024 weeks old. But so what? The stuff still works.

If you find one, I'm well-versed on them and glad to help. - GA

[infraredcalvin]

Ok, kind of a good and bad day yesterday, started to tear down my drivers side carb, where the fire occurred, it’s not good… filter is toast, soot all the way into the head intake, but the worst pars was my 2ndary verntuis melted in the heat of the carb fire… pics to follow… i suppose it’s time to reach out to my insurance company??? This one is going to cost…

[infraredcalvin]

This one is scorched, looks like the bowl flooded, then caught fire, the 3 cross looking black things are melted, they should be about an inch and a half longer. The pile of molten shrapnel on top is what I pulled out of the carb, some melted on the butterflies another chunk i pulled out of the intake runners… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

[Charles Freeborn]

This one is scorched, looks like the bowl flooded, then caught fire, the 3 cross looking black things are melted, they should be about an inch and a half longer. The pile of molten shrapnel on top is what I pulled out of the carb, some melted on the butterflies another chunk i pulled out of the intake runners… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

Give Paul Abbot a yell at Performance Oriented. He may have what you need.
Stand up guy too.
https://www.performanceoriented.com/