Rust repair before paint, The quest for solid metal in the driver side Long - 73 narrow body/4 rebuild thread Options

[Montreal914]

So, as mentioned earlier, the car is currently set with Brad Mayer repair panels. I installed those 13 years ago to enjoy my car daily. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

This was a nice patch and it definitely served its purpose, but it is now time to revisit the area and properly fix the problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

I made some braces with 1" square tube and large turnbuckles to minimize the car's movement. I plan on anchoring the tub accordingly on the dolly, but the first part is to assess the situation.

I will begin with the driver side as I am hoping it is in better shape than the passenger's. This way I can somewhat get used to the longitudinal repair work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif)

Step one, removing the door sill so I can have access to the weld that are on the top.




I used a 3/4" hole saw and cut around the 10 plug welds on the vertical part of the panel.






Then the pain of grinding all the various welds around the panel without damaging the original sheet metal... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ...Finally, it is off!




Now, the good eye will notice the jack point area to be somewhat different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
At the time, to reinforce that rusted area, I made a patch with the very limited means I had...




Well, 13 years later, nothing improved behind it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ...but nothing isn't really worse either...




Clearly, I will be in need of new metal there, that being said, there are no reproduction of this piece... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

I cut out a window allowing me to take some pictures inside.




Looking towards the front, things don't look too bad. We can see the indent for the emergency brake lever (arrow).




Now looking towards the rear, I am concerned by the circled area. The rust on the panels seems to be more than just surface... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)




So I decided to cut out a little window on the outside surface and discovered this... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)




So, I made a larger window...




This is definitely more than surface rust which means this whole section will need to be replace, inner and outer layer... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Now, when looking at he picture again, the inner side of the long doesn't really seem to be in better shape rust wise. I fear the rust between the corrugated inside inner and the inside outer layer will be the same as what we see in the last picture. This would mean rebuilding the whole long including dealing with the removal of the suspension consoles, and engine mount... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) And this is the driver side... clearly the passenger will probably not be better...

Not sure how to proceed here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Looking at the suspension console area and the rest of the engine compartment, it would be difficult to even think the level of rust that is inside. This tells me that probably most of the 914s even in decent conditions have a generous amount of rust in those layered area.

[930cabman]

The lengths we go to save our 1/2 century entry level sporting machines. Very thorough and keep the energy moving ahead.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Montreal914]

Yeah... Spent the night thinking about a strategy to tackle this... I have to say, I did really consider abandoning here and find myself another 914, but I fear a lot of them have this in-between layer rust issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Anyhow, I am in too deep to stop, and I know I can find the right support here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) so I will fix this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Does anyone know if both inner and outer suspension consoles and engine mounts are spot welded to the outer layers of the long or through the outer and inner layers (which would make more sense strength wise)? @nathanxnathan , @bbrock , @bkrantz , @Superhawk996 , @rick 918-s , to name a few of my build threads resources (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

At this point, I will borrow @nathanxnathan 's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) nice cross section and lexicon to make sure everyone can follow.



Just wondering how some of these components could be removed/installed individually or a few at a time.

The more I look at it, it seems this large portion of the inner fender (Outside Outer and Inside Outer) will come out, maybe with the outer suspension console attached (?).




This will expose the Inside Inner corrugated part. Then making a window in the corrugated part, I could investigate the level of rust in between the Inner long two layers (Inside Inner and Outside Inner). This might save me from removing the inside suspension console and the engine mount. All of these components look very good with original paint still on BTW. Which adds to my concern of the rust going from inside out...

A couple of pictures I quickly took last night. This not a restored car, but far from being a complete rust bucket, yet, it sort of is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Superhawk996]

1st let’s answer your question.

Suspension console is spot welded through 1 layer of steel on the outer long. Here is the picture of mine:


So what to do with yours? That is a really a tough call. Cutting out the entire long is feasible - that is what I did on the passenger side. Mine was simply roached completely. See the 1st couple pages of my thread in signature. The problem is in the driver side, the complete panels aren’t available from AA or RD like they are for the passenger side. So it would be a TON of fab work to make what can’t be purchased.

In your case, it doesn’t look quite that bad from the photos you’ve posted.

If you can avoid removing the whole long and just patch where necessary, I would. Sure there will be rust between the corrugated inner and the outer but unless it’s completely compromised, I wouldn’t cut it out.

Maybe cut some access windows. Spray in Ospho? Maybe other rust converting / encapsulating paint like Eastwood frame spray or any other converting paint? Treat it as completely as you can with access holes, then weld up the access holes?

[Superhawk996]

What you have is worth saving. Don’t give up. You’re doing a great job! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

You are at the phase of OMG - what have I done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/new_shocked.gif)

Once you wrap your mind around it and start moving forward, you will feel much better.

I applaud you for pulling the Brad Mayer panels. They serve the purpose they were meant - keeping cars on the road. But they are heavy and will be unnecessary when you make the repairs you’re doing. These cars were mean to be Lightweight - no need to be carrying around extra steel plate when you’re done!

Also take a look up in the engine compartment at the top of the longs - you will find access holes there that lead into the top of the long. This is a great access point for Ospho and rust converting paint.

[Montreal914]

Thank you Superhawk for the pointers. I am going to see Vince now (1 hour away) to see what panels he has in his yard. I know the driver's side isn't available from RD, AA. I have already gotten the inner fender well for the passenger as the rust is poking out fore of the outer suspension point. As for the hell hole, there was a repair done prior to my ownership. I plan on opening it up to see how that looks. I did locate the hole at the top of the long and may get one of those cheap borescope.

Good to know the grafted elements (suspension consoles, engine mount (hopefully)) are only attached to the outer layer. This may come handy to separate parts.

Yeah, I feel like my car is pretty solid (no signs yet of floor rust), but it is clearly affected by rust in the key structural area. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) The Brad Mayer will not go back on, for sure. But I will reinforce some areas. Inner kit, outer clamshell, GT kit are all options on the table, maybe partial components.

[Superhawk996]

Give my regards to Vince. He provided front bulkhead sheet metal and a tunnel for my project. Would have been hell without his donor metal!

You’re lucky to have him so close!

[rick 918-S]

It is always hard to know when to stop. I mean you could really dissemble the whole car and never find all the rust. I am not upposed to drilling access holes just large enough to slide in the long tube you get with the Eastwood encapsulator and flood the spaces. Some two part epoxy injected in the holes will seal them without welding and burning off the encapsulator. Just a suggestion.

[altitude411]

Am I mistaken or is this area in blue the only place the outside long is double walled? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I thought it was only double walled in the area of the overlap where the inner fender and the outer long piece butted together? (sleeved)







* Edit, just found these photos courtesy of Luke M Maybe of some help to you for reference

[Montreal914]

Well, it was worth the trip to Vince's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) I did pass on the hello on your behalf and all of the World. He mentioned not remembering everyone as he regularly ships parts all over. And yes, it is quite a blessing to have him close by for such projects. Parts are getting a lot harder to find for him due to rarity of the abandoned cars. Also, cars that he might have cut in the past now are kept whole for potential buyers.

Altitude: Those are some very good looking sheet metal components! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That being said, I think I found some good parts for my repair. I was hoping to find a whole piece to replace the outer portion basically including the jack point all the way rear of the suspension console. Instead I got that in two parts and a whole lot more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Here is today's lot brought home:



The red parts are actually from the same car but unfortunately was cut in two. The cut matches though so other than it, it is complete.

The jack point on it isn't the greatest but that is OK as I got two other ones too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

Now looking inside the rear part, it is pretty much gray, not rust. This is very encouraging!




Not sure yet how I will tackle this but I might simply replace the outer with the "new" part as-is, meaning the whole outer two layers and suspension point in one transfer.

With all of the outer removed, it would give me access to the Inside Inner (corrugated). Now that it was established that the spot welds of the inner suspension console isn't through the inner (corrugated) panel, I could remove it by drilling the spot weld and investigate the rust between those layers while leaving all of the engine side as-is.

Once the corrugated removed, I could replace it with the "new" one. This would basically replace 3 of the 4 layers from outside without drilling any of the suspension consoles spot welds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

The plan is starting to take shape. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) One of the question is; where to cut the Outside Outer on the car? Maybe about 3/4" above the upper line of spot welds, sort of like the RD part that is available for the passenger side?

[Montreal914]

Another month goes by... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

After a trip to Portugal where we enjoyed a lot of wine, especially Port and Pastel de Nata (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , time to get back to work! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

Before tackling any more cutting of the frame, it was time to complete the work on the Jigster (Jeff Hail's TM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) ).

Using the horizontal and vertical laser, I set the Jigster leveled and made sure the car was not only leveled, but also on the center line of the Jigster. Then I did a bunch of Z axis measurement to see how things were. I was happily surprised to see that everything was within about 1/32"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif). This was encouraging despite all of the recent rust findings. I also measure the lower edge of the car's back panel and it was the same on both sides. This has been a concern since seeing the car had been hit in the back.






Up to this point the car had been resting on wooden 2"x2" under the longs. If I am to start cutting the structure, I need to make sure things are held. Time to bolt the car to the Jigster! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With the car and Jigster now perfectly leveled and centered, I fabricated brackets, then bolted them to the car's front suspension cross member rear mounting point and welded them to a cross beam.




Then similarly in the back, I made brackets and mounted them to the engine mounts, and with 1/2" threaded rods adjusted them and welded/tightened everything. The car is now well attached to the Jigster, almost ready for some structural work.






Yes, almost ready because bracing is the next important part! I built these using 1"x1"x1/8" square tubes and 3/4" turnbuckles.



Now installed on the tub






Then I decided to add another one on the bottom. Not sure it is needed, but anyhow, it is there... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)




Note that all these braces can easily be removed by unscrewing the bolts at each ends. Also, doors are kept on the car and can open or close freely to ensure constant gap monitoring.

[Montreal914]

To address the rust on the driver's side long, I will need to remove the rear suspension outer console. In order to reinstall it, I need a jig to locate the mounting points.

I prepared a couple of 1/4" plate using the "L" piece that goes in the suspension assembly as a template for my holes.




Once bolted to the chassis, I built a jig mounted to the Jigster. The cross beam has left-right stoppers, and there are also angle stoppers to the Jigster longitudinal frame as front-back locating point. The cross beam is then clamped to the Jigster.





To remove the outer suspension point jig, I unscrew the six suspension bolts, Remove the large clamps, slide the cross beam with jig backward, tilt backwards, and remove. Important to note that I will not remove both outer suspension point simultaneously (driver's and passenger's side) so at least one of the two suspension mounting point will be on the car when one is removed as an added reference.



Next, I started dismantling the donor part I recently got from Vince. Anyone who has dealt with these rear suspension factory braces know how much of a pain they are to remove... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)




As if all of the perimeter welds weren't enough on the longer brace, there are 2 large plug welds to deal with... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)




After spending about 3 hours of delicate grinding and drilling, I was able to separate the inner and outer portion of donor driver side rear longitudinal.










I am very happy with the condition of these old parts! All but healthy and solid metal! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

More pictures in next post...

Not sure why this picture is repeated below... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Montreal914]

More pictures (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here is the back side of the outer long. This will be a nice replacement to the rusty area of my car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




For those who aren't aware, unfortunately, the driver side of this part isn't available as a replacement part from Restoration Design of other vendors. So, I am very pleased with this finding!

Left is driver side, right is new RD passenger side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)




Looking at the port holes, I was able to take a few pictures to show the inside of the suspension console. These can be quite rusty at times, but this one is clearly in excellent shape. I will probably flush it with Ospho and spray some Eastwood chassis protection in it.






As a reminder, the reason I am going through all of this is to fix this... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

From the outside, the metal on that elbow seems pretty solid.




But once I looked into it, I found this crusty rusted and soft metal that I was able to punch through with a screwdriver near the suspension console area. That is a key structural area of our cars!

[nivekdodge]

Holy toledo. You are going to town on that.
Kevin

[Mayne]

Nice work! Are you going to coat the inside of your patch panels with something?

[930cabman]

This is great progress, thank you for documenting

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif)

[bkrantz]

Nice surgical work. Keep going!

[Montreal914]

The quest for solid metal continues... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Clearly, both outer layers of the long from the jack point to the outer suspension console are compromised and will have to be removed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif)

So here is the plan marked in black. The inner fender will be cut above its junction to the inner layers. Spot welds will be drilled to free the outer layer from the inner.





The cut on the back end of the outer long will be done close to the suspension console. The plan will be to use the

[930cabman]

Will it ever end?

Keep up the good work, there must be and end to it

[Montreal914]

Right? When will I get to solid metal?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I accidentally added the previous post as I was composing...

Back to the cut of this large piece...

The cut on the back end of the outer long (right in the picture) will be done close to the suspension console. The spot welds joining the tail end (V shaped) of the inner layer will be drilled. The plan will be to install the new piece using the inner layer as an overlap.





Here we can see the whole piece freed up. Notice the inner layer (V) extending towards the back. The new piece will be installed exactly like that and the inner layer will be plug welded to the outer layer creating a nice staggered ovelaping joint.




And here is the removed piece. Although the heavily rusted area circled seems small, I am convinced there is a lot more hiding. Did I remove too much material? Could this have been repaired without creating this opening? Maybe, but the outer suspension console would have needed to come out anyway. The benefit of removing the whole panel will be to inspect more easily.




First, let's make a peek hole to see what color is the metal behind... I am definitely liking that nice primer gray color in the hole!





But there are other areas that aren't looking that great... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)




These bumps are always suspicious to me... Clearly rust has pushed the metal up in that area. Investigation will be needed.




Time to chisel this weak metal off and see what is still good...




That led to finding weak spots also in the outside inner layer of the long. Again, in order to fully assess the situation, I need to remove more metal. That triangle with the donut will have to come off...




Out it goes... This part will be straightened and reinstalled after the long has been repaired.




Ah!!! Rust, rust, and more rust... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)




In the end, I removed the whole lower half of the inside inner layer (contoured in yellow), including the lower seat belt anchoring point. Notice the rust hole just behind it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) While poking with the screwdriver, it easily went through... I am holding the last piece removed in my hand. All of this was progressively done. But at this point, I do believe the deep rust is ending and the good metal is finally there. I will treat the surface rust and the metal should be sound.



Next step will be to cut at the red line and rebuild the inside outer layer, then add the inside inner layer. Removing that red section will also means detaching that area of the floor, and the flanged lower firewall beam inner and outer panels. More fun to come! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)