Tinware writing, Was this on all cars…?? Options

[wonkipop]

doing a final sweep through my files - here are a couple more examples.
examples found during our research for 1.8 ECA/B.
i didn't include these in tables of survey information as i could not get a chassis number on the cars. poor condition. but they are of interest.

#1
from infamous b. h. c. c.
74 1.8 with 605 engine tin stamp same as @StarBear car.
while it looks like its been worked over in usual way with a rattle can spray job tart up, and its lost its EFI for carbs, it does appear to be the remains of an original car. its got guages and a console same as starbear car. not quite as reliable as starbear car in originality stakes, but the pattern repeats as per my speculation. base car ordered with gauges and console from factory got different engine stamp due to the oil temp sump lid?





#2.
the sad remains of a 75 1.8. car looks like a a terminal rust case that got parked a few decades ago and was picked over. whats left of it looks like the corpse of something that was pretty original. its got the newly discovered 920 engine stamp same as engine i posted earlier for mr. b's interest (which by the emission sticker was a 49 state 75 1.8).
918 is the other stamp for a 49 state 75 1.8.

this is an indication that the pattern of 74 cars repeats in 75? there are two engine stamp numbers for each variant of 1.8?

what was left of this car had a console in it. 920 = 75 1.8 with console and gauges and 918 = 75 1.8 without if ordered from factory new that way?





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also another 411/412 engine lying around in files.
(french ad!, says its a 914 engine, tin says its a 411/412 engine, probably a variant).
has same first number as the 411/412 i posted earlier as examples of the 3 number combinations for particular VW models.
looks like 411/412s likely ran a 5 series set of stamps for their engines.




might be time to open a thread in garage section for members with 75 1.8s.
i believe there are two more numbers out there for those cars clustered around 918 and 920. for the californian 1.8s. there would also be two numbers i think for ROW AN engine 1.8s in 75 but i think we have buckleys and none chance of getting those.
would any even survive?

could run a second thread to see if there is anything more to EA and EB cars in 72/73 than the two known of 610 and 613.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear and @JeffBowlsby

i don't know enough about 73/74 2.0L cars. none in my general vicinity for 30 years for me to notice things.

just twigged looking at my old restorer's guide first edition that no matter what 2.0 L cars got a temp gauge. either the combo guage in the cluster or the fancy console one. i'm slow. i was thinking the sump lid temp connection was a redundancy thing in 2.0L in case you wanted the fancy console - but they all had it no matter what as they all had a temp gauge of one sort or another

whereas your 1.7. 1.8 like mine just got the idiot handbrake light flasher and a plain sump lid. i reckon my theory is very valid. there would have been folks who wanted that temp gauge even in their 1.8s. and porsche could give you one with the console if you special ordered it. but only if the engine was right with the correct lid in place.

i've been looking for consoles in 73 1.7 sales adverts thinking there could be other engine stamp numbers for 1.7s too besides 610 and 613. but not stumbled on a 1.7 with a factory fitted console.

[JeffBowlsby]

Not all 2.0s received the oil temp gauge. Some had no OT gauge. Both OT gauges were optional equipment.

[wonkipop]

Not all 2.0s received the oil temp gauge. Some had no OT gauge. Both OT gauges were optional equipment.

the plot thickens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

Not all 2.0s received the oil temp gauge. Some had no OT gauge. Both OT gauges were optional equipment.

the plot thickens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i looked up the pet catalogue.
it agrees with dr. b johnson. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

says oil temp gauge not an option on a 2.0 - says its a choice between instrument binnacle or console if you tick the console. deleted from instrument binnacle when you get the console and replaced with idiots guide to the handbrake.

according to pet o t gauge is an option on the 1.7 and 1.8 if you tick the console box on the order. but you don't get to do the instrument binnacle one.

pet and dr. j book seems to support my theory. all 2.0s come with the engine sump lid because all get a temp gauge.
only console 1.8s would ever get a temp gauge and require a sump lid with temp sensor.

pet also says consoles were available as option for 1.7s in 73.
there must be some 1.7s floating around that got a console on factory order?
be interesting to investigate and see if there is a different engine stamp involved.
but i can't find one scanning recent sales documentation.

[JeffBowlsby]

For 1973-76 there were 914s without the center console and oil temp gauge, which was an Appearance Group item, find the models here: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/ModelNumbers.htm

I cannot find anything that indicatres if a 914 does not have the Appearance Group oil temp gauge in the console, then it had the oil temp in the dash gauge.

The list indicates for all 2.0L cars PN 91464110130 is listed

For 73 the list indicates PN 91464110240 as the standard 2.0L dash gauge without the oil temp for non-console (non-appearance group) cars. Its standard gauge does not include teh oil temp gauge

For 74 the list indicates PN 91464110150 as the 74 'standard' (non-appearance group) 2.0L gauge, but I cannot find a photo anywhere of that gauge. Anyone have an image ofthat gauge?

Here are gauges 91464110130 (top) and 91464110240 (bottom):

[wonkipop]

the distinguishing number seems to be the third set of three numbers.

a 102 is the standard type (with handbrake light) fitted to 1.7s or 1.8s, but also to 2.0s (if they have a console).

a 101 is the binnacle gauge that has the o t section at top.

pet says a /6 gets 101, then a 914 2.0 and then 74 2.0 on. the three different types evolution being covered by the last two numbers.

the pet is pretty clear.
you get the 101 as base level 2.0
"for cars without centre console".
you get the 102 if you order the console and it replaces the 101 in a console car.
which makes sense. why would you have two temp gauges.

but the 101 (for instrument binnacle) is never listed as a possibility for a /4, 1.7 or 1.8.

it would make sense that porsche wanted all the 2.0s to have a temp gauge.
they replace the 6 in the model line up. even in base form.
its the performance car.
(and it was, i have driven a 2.0 euro spec car here, they got up and went straight out of the box and to me actually felt faster than the 6 i drove. at least for the first bit away from the lights - the euro cars were also slightly lighter, less steel up the front and in the doors, pretty nice actually).

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby .

i went to your link.
extensive list of model number (option packages) there.
but nothing that lists specifically what is in a standard 2.0 package for 73 on.

unless you are assuming that standard means no temp gauge
.....but the pet is making it clear that standard means it has a temp gauge and its in the binnacle. and its not if its got a console - which is the option.

where does the console fall? is it appearance group option. or is it performance group option for MY 73-74. that is how the console gauge offers up.

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i glanced at your engine table down the bottom.

our recent data collection on 74 1.8s could be used to update.
as we discovered its the other way around with the EC-A and B in 74.
pretty conclusively. ref CARB docs and original sales locations in either calif or 49 states.

the case of the 75s is interesting as the only place an EC-a or EC-b is mentioned is in
that service and training manual for 75s that you have. there is no classification of the engines as (a) or (b) on the emissions stickers anymore as they move into calling them engine family numbers. i think its 15 and 16.

i noticed something from reading the pet and looking closely at the engine types for 73 when i was trying to work out if there was something to base engines getting gauges.

it looks to me like the PET says W series engines keep being used for european cars in 73. they don't appear to list EA as being for ROW?
the EA and EB are strictly for the USA? the EA starting up in 72. either at start of model year or some time during model year?

[Van B]

Side bar to the current conversation:
Did you send a link to your threads here when you emailed the Porsche museum? I would be curious to know if he saw the work you were putting in to deduce the long lost methods used 50yrs ago to build these things.

Van

[wonkipop]

Side bar to the current conversation:
Did you send a link to your threads here when you emailed the Porsche museum? I would be curious to know if he saw the work you were putting in to deduce the long lost methods used 50yrs ago to build these things.

Van

i gave him the list of known numbers that jeff bowlsby had compiled and the extra three (including his) found with this recent survey. if he looked up jeff's website he would see how serious jeff has been over the years compiling stuff.

hard to know if porsche would be interested in what VW got up to at the hamburg eggbeater manufacturing facility. although these days they are supposed to be all one big happy family? its VW stuff not porsche manufacturing history?

lets face it - the numbers are mere curiousities?
or of interest to the super fastidious restorer.

but aside from idiosyncratic restoration of technological anachronisms, the #s seem to hint at something. the L jet engines have lower numbers in the sequencing than the last of the 1.7 D jets. i could be seeing too much in that. but its of interest.

it can only be answered by a proper historian, on the ground in germany, with access to the factory archives of both VW and Bosch.

no-one seems to know that much about the early development of L jet.
i've looked around. there is not much history on it.
plenty on D jet and the Bendix idea they developed up.

it looks to me like VW and Bosch were cooking up L jet well in advance and were pushing to get it into the cars as soon as they could. they knew it was the way to go but had some trouble getting it into the cars as early as they hoped?

its just a wild guess, but i think their ideal plan was to have L jet base cars and the D jet 2.0 in 73 when they revamped and re-orgnised the engine line and model make up. thats also about the time porsche was angling to take over full responsibility of the 914 project. i think the 1.7 D jets were in there as a contingency back up. they knew that the 1.7 in a california car was a disaster. and to some extent it was. 72 or 73 hp. a bit of a joke. unfortunately the 1.8 was a year late to save them from that situation.
and california was not some small sector of their market. it accounted for an absurdly large percentage of total porsches sold. so it was a real problem in 73.

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[wonkipop]

given over the last 2 years or so we have discovered three new numbers to add to the extensive collection and catalogue @JeffBowlsby has amassed on his website i had a bit of spare time to put the numbers as known into order.

this includes the 607 and 608 number discovered for 1974 1.8s and the 919 number for 1975 1.8s that more recently turned up.

there are still a few out there eluding us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[L-Jet914]

For 1973-76 there were 914s without the center console and oil temp gauge, which was an Appearance Group item, find the models here: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/ModelNumbers.htm

I cannot find anything that indicatres if a 914 does not have the Appearance Group oil temp gauge in the console, then it had the oil temp in the dash gauge.

The list indicates for all 2.0L cars PN 91464110130 is listed

For 73 the list indicates PN 91464110240 as the standard 2.0L dash gauge without the oil temp for non-console (non-appearance group) cars. Its standard gauge does not include teh oil temp gauge

For 74 the list indicates PN 91464110150 as the 74 'standard' (non-appearance group) 2.0L gauge, but I cannot find a photo anywhere of that gauge. Anyone have an image ofthat gauge?

Here are gauges 91464110130 (top) and 91464110240 (bottom):

@JeffBowlsby I believe this is the gauge your looking for. I just purchased this recently from 914Sixer (Mark) to add to my 74 1.8 after I get all the other components to make everything work.

[JeffBowlsby]

Excellent, thanks!

[L-Jet914]

Excellent, thanks!

You're welcome. Anything to help out the preservation of our little cars.

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

another one of the engine tin stamp numbers has come in from a member over at the samba. Lars S from Belgium. i see from his signature he is a great fan of the type 4 and has a collection of 411s and 914s.

the number is from a 1972 (european spec) 1.7 D Jet.
the engine is a W0 series engine as distinct from the USA EA series engines.
he knows his stuff, so the number would be valid.
its 606.



kind of interesting because 606 gets used again for the (EA/AN edit typo) EC/AN series of numbers in 74.
i guess it makes sense. the W0 1.7 euro engines are retired at the end of 73 MY so the number series with 0 in the middle is available again to identify engines.

it would appear in 72/73 that the middle number as a 0 might be used for the ROW W0 engines, the middle number 1 for the EA engine of 72/73 for USA and EB engine of 73.
the middle number 2 gets allocated to the 2.0 L engines for ROW and USA respectively.
in 74 the 0 series gets given to the 1.8s after the 1.7 goes out of use?

i amended/updated the charts with the info to date

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

i came very close to pulling down the # on a 75 1.8 euro spec car.
for sale in germany at present.
(would have been one of the 101 cars!!).
not much photo documentation. private ebay sale in germany.
one photo was so close. just see the top of the number peeking past the heater hose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

looks like it got backdated bumpers at some point during current owners time with car. one photo shows the original bumper. the sales info lists the model as a 75.
(pretty rough fit around the doors when you look close - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

[infraredcalvin]

@wonkipop asked me to post this up here, it’s from my first 914-4 1,8 CA car.

Orig window sticker:


Original 1.8 engine:

[wonkipop]

@infraredcalvin

thanks for posting that mate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
you dropped in the last bit of evidence to prove my theory and gave us the final engine stamp number for all the USA market 1.8 L Jets. 74 and 75.
the window sticker is icing (confirmation) on the cake. 921 exists and is just what i thought it would be. its fantastic you came up with those old photos of your car.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wonkipop]

updated engine code stencil stamps.

[wonkipop]

found another 72 MY german delivery 1.7 with legible engine code stamp.
very good original condition well cared for.
engine stamp number looks to be 606.
matches one posted further up page i obtained off a european owner of euro delivered 72 1.7 = also 606.
These are WO series engines in europe - as opposed to EA series in USA at same time.

(ad lists the car as a 71 model. but its a 72. passenger seat update and stalks on steering wheel for windscreen washers. dealer has listed manufacture date? must be a 72MY made after Aug 71. european dealers often list cars this way.