Tinware writing, Was this on all cars…?? Options

[wonkipop]

According to my list:

604 is a 1974 1.8L, but I don't know which engine code it is?
605 is a 1974 1.8L EC-B engine code, CA-model
606 over P is a 1974 1.8L EC-A engine code, USA-model

Att 1.8L are EC-code engines but there were sub categories. Look for the label on the drivers side interior engine bay side panel, it will tell you. EC-A, EC-B etc.

mr. b, whats the little silver sticker under the EPA one?
in the photo of mine above you can see a trace of where it was in mine but its not there anymore.

[JeffBowlsby]

Tellin' yah all I know, which isn't sayin' much.

1974 EC-A and EC-B labels attached.

The one 1975 label attached looks odd to me. I have had the hardest time finding 1975 labels for the 1.8L and 2.0L and this one depicted just looks odd to me, not like the other 914 labels. The source I got it from said it was off his 914 but I wonder if it may be a bus engine or something else (Thing?) Note its not on the 914 sidewall, its on the engine fan housing that a clue to me its not right.

Whats the difference betwen the EC-A and EC-B? Seems to be emissions related.

Review the two charts here and their sources. 1975 1.8L had lots more emissions equip than the 1974 cars. https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Emissions.htm

Also a page from the 1975 Service and Training manual is depicted, I think its my only source indicating the EC-A and EC-B. The 914 Service and Trianing manuals for each year are on my website for anyones perusal.

And I;ve added the 1974 CA-model windshield sticker re: emmissions. I dont have one ofthese for the 1975 model.

If anyone has the clear 1975 1.8L or 2.0L windshield emmissions label or the 1975 engine bay sidewall labels please post a good photo here on this thread and Ill add it it the website collection.

[JeffBowlsby]

mr. b, whats the little silver sticker under the EPA one?
in the photo of mine above you can see a trace of where it was in mine but its not there anymore.

All 914 years, all models as far as I know.

[wonkipop]

mr. b, whats the little silver sticker under the EPA one?
in the photo of mine above you can see a trace of where it was in mine but its not there anymore.

All 914 years, all models as far as I know.

mr. b

this is gold.
that sticker.
thats probably what i had as sticker and i have a plastic can in the engine bay.
there is a trace of it in the same spot (can still feel where its tacky).
is it in all the cars all years?

you remember we were pondering the plumbing on the charcoal can set up for the engine bay cars.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=347951

StarBear and I (engine bay cans) are very sure we have original plumbing in above thread.
which we suggested is plumbed up differently to the layouts for the frunk can cars.
and there is official literature which supports the plumbing for frunk cars and for engine bay cars in their different forms.

an EC-A is a frunk can car with the porsche evap system (plumbing diagrams you have)? frunk can cars come first for early part of 74 model year in 73.
A = first version?

an EC-B is an engine bay can with VW evap system (plumbing diagrams we have)? engine bay cars came after in second half of 74 model year. B = second version?

they did move the can one more time closer to the battery but all the photos i have seen show that its plumbed like the earlier engine bay can in the VW manner. so it would still be an EC-B?

just a thought.

[wonkipop]

mr b

was there any difference between a cali 2.0 engine and 49 states?

[JeffBowlsby]

A conditional yes. Depends on how ‘engine’ is defined. Includes FI? exhaust? Emissions equip or tuning? Which model year?

[wonkipop]

fascinating.

there is nothing in the factory manual i have ever come across that would point to there being a cali 1.8 in 74. you know - no different settings, CO mix etc in the tune up.
no indications or side notes for a cali specific thing.

pretty interesting.

i think there is after that in 75 isn't there? only cali got cats?

did earlier cars/later cars have the same sort of stickers that said both cali and US.
or did cali cars have a cali only sticker to identify them?

[JeffBowlsby]

an EC-A is a frunk can car with the porsche evap system (plumbing diagrams you have)? frunk can cars come first for early part of 74 model year in 73.
A = first version?

an EC-B is an engine bay can with VW evap system (plumbing diagrams we have)? engine bay cars came after in second half of 74 model year. B = second version?

they did move the can one more time closer to the battery but all the photos i have seen show that its plumbed like the earlier engine bay can in the VW manner. so it would still be an EC-B?

just a thought.

Don’t think that’s what the ECA/ECB means.

The S&T manual page posted above is for 1975 models, it lists both ECA/ECB, yet for 1975 all the charcoal cans were in the engine bay.

[wonkipop]

an EC-A is a frunk can car with the porsche evap system (plumbing diagrams you have)? frunk can cars come first for early part of 74 model year in 73.
A = first version?

an EC-B is an engine bay can with VW evap system (plumbing diagrams we have)? engine bay cars came after in second half of 74 model year. B = second version?

they did move the can one more time closer to the battery but all the photos i have seen show that its plumbed like the earlier engine bay can in the VW manner. so it would still be an EC-B?

just a thought.

Don’t think that’s what the ECA/ECB means.

The S&T manual page posted above is for 1975 models, it lists both ECA/ECB, yet for 1975 all the charcoal cans were in the engine bay.

yep that cans that thought.

the mysteries.

maybe its just something they did to make the prehistoric version of cancel cultural warriors down there in sunny so cal think they were still getting gear that was superior to the rest of the great "unwashed" of the country? (no politics intended - i'm somewhat unwashed). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[wonkipop]

ps
@JeffBowlsby .

i'm still looking at that factory engine prod line photo.
and thats 914 2.0 engines those boys are making.
you can tell from the throttle body.

don't think any VW engines got that throttle body?
not even 2.0 L bus motors, pretty sure they had the sideways throttle bodies.

i know they are not photos of guys making 912E motors.
they had things on the fan castings to hold smog pumps.

what are they doing with an arse dragger exhaust system hooked up?

[wonkipop]

A conditional yes. Depends on how ‘engine’ is defined. Includes FI? exhaust? Emissions equip or tuning? Which model year?

74 of course.
inclusive of FI and exhaust.

[wonkipop]

ok

@JeffBowlsby .

The tech page is from a training manual from 1975.
correct?

that names a A and B version of the EC engine.

and in 1975 there was a difference in the cars for cali and the other 49 states?
cali cars had cats. (min?). egr. etc.
was this equipment on 49 state cars?
i remember reading that cats were phased in stateside due to supply chain production questions. so cali got them first in 75 and rest of america next in 76.

so my proposition is A and B in 75 are because there is two different versions running concurrently. one for cali and one for 49 states.

go back to 74.
i can find no evidence anywhere in anything technical that there is anything other than a USA wide approved 1.8. California and 49 states.

but there is an A and B version.
the stickers you have prove that.
does not mean they are concurrent?
could mean they are chronological?
an engine bay can car is going to have the port on the rhs of blower fan opened up for the hose to the can.
a frunk car has the port on the lhs for the can? i think.

whats the date on the EC-A sticker car? do you have it.

just another thought.

i mean in my game A and B versions can mean a lot of different things.
there is an A and B version side by side.
and there is an A and B version one after the other.

its blowing like a gale down here so i got nothing better to do.
apologies.
the roof is probably going to come off my building soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

i believe what you are saying is right.
the A and B thing is due to emissions changes or differences.
my thought is that for 74 its chronological.
they shift the can.
its big enough to warrant an emissions approval for variant a and b.
but both versions meet california and all states - as cans are in universally and have been for some time.
in 75 its concurrent?
there is a california specific variant and a 49 states variant? don't know. you would.
what are the stickers like in 75?
do they state 49 state specific only (if don't have cats and not sure about that anyway) unlike the 74 stickers which do say meets california and all states together.

[JeffBowlsby]

Wonk,

That page from the 75 S&T manual also includes the GC code 2.0L which indicates an -a and -b version for USA and CA market cars. We can be 100% certain thats what those desgnations also mean for 1974.

My head is spinning from all the questions. Answers to several/most of your questions are here, please review.

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Emissions.htm

Thinking about the 1974 labels, like you I am not aware of any difference between the USA and CA cars. I am leaning towards the idea that the 1974 ECA/ECB labels including the windshield label were to satisfy USA and CA emissions labelling requirements, even though physically and mechanically there was no difference with the cars. I have CA-only windlsheidl labels for 1971 through 1976 cars on my site, which suggests that this label probably exists for the 1970 cars too, but I just have not seen it yet.

[JeffBowlsby]

ps
@JeffBowlsby .

i'm still looking at that factory engine prod line photo.
and thats 914 2.0 engines those boys are making.
you can tell from the throttle body.

don't think any VW engines got that throttle body?
not even 2.0 L bus motors, pretty sure they had the sideways throttle bodies.

i know they are not photos of guys making 912E motors.
they had things on the fan castings to hold smog pumps.

what are they doing with an arse dragger exhaust system hooked up?

I have the same questions, in sum, I dont know. Its not 912E, exhaust looks more 411/412/bus wit its passenger side exhaust tip. Its D-Jet FI (ECU connectors visible on several engines). The stampings format on the left and right side of the tin appear to be consistent with 1973-74 2.0L GA code engines (see below) but the stampings are are illegible. The engine tin profile in plan appears to be 914 but could it be something else? The air cleaner bracket appears to be 914 2.0L.

[StarBear]

i really feel its a batching thing. but thats a wild guess.
my car was karmann numbered late jan and vin numbered 01/74.
its a car that went straight through the system fast.
the engine stamp is a 4 when yours is a 5.
yours is vin march 74 but an early karmann number.
it probably did not finish hard core final assembly until mar 74.

Probably batches. Mine sat around for weeks waiting for engine tins!
Through in CA/49-state confusion and who knows unless someone finds some assembly line notebook. After all, I don't think I even knew that number was there until a year or two ago! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

mr. b

i found this in factory manual.



you are correct re 1975. it shows up.
small a and b mean USA (49) and California variants of EC engines.

also as commonly accepted for 73
EA = USA (49) and EB = California.

but there is no EC-A or EC-B shown here.
i think EC-A and EC-B means something else besides California or 49.

i went to your site and had a look at your engine sticker section.
you need more stickers from people.
time for an information drive.

i picked up a couple of things from what you had though that were interesting.

1973
EA and EB stickers are identical in terms of stating emission compliance.
says the same as starbear and my 74 stickers.
notes that both EPA and California compliant.
thinking about it both engines would be compliant in terms of california emissions.
only thing about an EB is it is dual fuel and can take 91 RON.
so unleaded requirement in california does not fall under emissions laws.
its another separate requirement that california brings in for new cars?
and it does not show up on stickers distinguishing between california or 49 states.

1975.
engine stickers don't distinguish engines as EC-A or EC-B
the stickers instead refer to ENGINE FAMILY and have two different numbers.
15 and 16 I think.
stickers distinguish between being california and EPA and EPA only.
believe 1975 is in the first year where you do get an emission sticker that says
one is for california (and by default any other state) and another that says EPA only (49 states) on the stickers?

it would be nice to know what car the 74 EC-A sticker is from.
date of manufacture/vin. point of sale.
that would start to unravel the 1974 EC-A and EC-B?
it definitely means something.

[wonkipop]

ps
@JeffBowlsby .

i'm still looking at that factory engine prod line photo.
and thats 914 2.0 engines those boys are making.
you can tell from the throttle body.

don't think any VW engines got that throttle body?
not even 2.0 L bus motors, pretty sure they had the sideways throttle bodies.

i know they are not photos of guys making 912E motors.
they had things on the fan castings to hold smog pumps.

what are they doing with an arse dragger exhaust system hooked up?

I have the same questions, in sum, I dont know. Its not 912E, exhaust looks more 411/412/bus wit its passenger side exhaust tip. Its D-Jet FI (ECU connectors visible on several engines). The stampings format on the left and right side of the tin appear to be consistent with 1973-74 2.0L GA code engines (see below) but the stampings are are illegible. The engine tin profile in plan appears to be 914 but could it be something else? The air cleaner bracket appears to be 914 2.0L.

i wonder if they ran the engines up on an engine dyno at the factory before they sent them to karmann?

they might have only had an engine dyno set up for vw rear engine configuration and needed an exhaust system on it. 914 exhaust would be cumbersome to support, might have fouled with coupling of dyno to flywheel.

seems a bit wasteful in terms of time.
they could have re-used it i suppose after they were finished.

re profile of engine bay tin.
as far as i know that engine only went in buses, type 4 cars, 912Es and 914s.
profile of the engine bay mating shape is completely different in buses, cars and 912s. i think it can only be a 914 tin.

[StarBear]

Here's my engine bay sticker. Clean and clear. EC-B. Body completed 11/73 per driver door jamb; unit completed 3/74 per COA.

[JeffBowlsby]

1973 1.7L EB code has lower compression, to meet CA emissoins. Its on your posted chart.

[wonkipop]

1973 1.7L EB code has lower compression, to meet CA emissoins. Its on your posted chart.

yep.
an EB is a 73 cali 1.7 dual fuel running D jet.

but thats not really an answer as to what an EC-A or an EC-B is in 1974.

......starbear and my car are east coast cars from delivery, but are EC-B.
so its not fitting the logic your using? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

i'd like to accept your idea, but its a proposition/suggestion.
so far there is no solid factory evidence that EC-A and EC-B means a cali or a 49 state.
if it did i think it would be in that chart from the factory manual i posted and it would appear in so much other literature. but it doesn't. ever.

there is something to A and B, but its buried somewhere else in documents?
i'm curious now, mainly because its about my car - so i'd like to know.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)