Tinware writing, Was this on all cars…?? Options

[StarBear]

I wonder if (?) the other letters denote the second-party supplier/vendor. Bosch did that with lots of their stuff (condensers, etc) though with additional numbers. Another wrench to our brains! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[wonkipop]

I wonder if (?) the other letters denote the second-party supplier/vendor. Bosch did that with lots of their stuff (condensers, etc) though with additional numbers. Another wrench to our brains! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

could be. those 2.0L throttle bodies have LUS stamped on them - whatever that means (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) ?

i found US vehicle emissions standards for the 70s.
there is a difference between Cali and Fed (49 states).
Cali is trying to get NOx down. (but accepts higher CO as a consequence).
its like an interim stage just before cats (cats will drop high CO by converting it to CO2. cal accepts higher CO to lower NOx (main ingredient of smog) for 74 on the way to implementing cats in 75.

74 is a funny year in terms of emissions standards? i've got a feeling that earlier in the 70s it was the target date for cats but lobbying by manufactures resulted in an EPA concession to delay it by a year and phase it across 2 years.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear . you are right about letters being manufacturer of part. some of the letters anyway.

LUS on 2.0 Litre TB = manufacturer. its a sub contracted supplier item.

1 + VW LOGO + AUDI LOGO = made by VW/AUDI in their own plant and by VW/AUDI GERMANY. a 2 would mean VW Mexico. a 3 would mean VW Brazil. (at least that was what the information i found said).

1.7 and 1.8 TBs were all made by VW themselves inside one of their factories.




The H that is stamped on the 1.8 TB stands for something other than supplier or manufacturer.

But for all the 2.0 L owners with their special porsche engine (which it is) its been made by a supplier that porsche brought into the chain.

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby .

there are plenty of threads you can find with a search on thesamba covering painted stamps on engine tin.

seems type 1 engines also got the stamps.
a lot of time hidden on back of fan tin so not always visible.
never saw them on aussie beetles, but they could have been there.
not sure if type 3 engines got them, did not find any evidence from samba members posting images of them.

seems all the stamps are for quick recognition of completed engine stock inventory.
ie what spec it is, what EFI set up its got, what it goes into.

apparently I O might mean IN ORDNUNG. ie in order. or as we understand it - an OK stamp.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear & @JeffBowlsby .

i have managed to find some stuff about the implementation of the clean air act in the USA that indicate the original plan to have the US car fleet fitted with cats by 1975 had to be delayed slightly.

There was a problem getting enough cats made and into the supply chain early.

i'll keep digging as i get bits of spare time.

The plan was drawn up by the US Government in 1970, EPA was founded etc.
California was granted the special dispensation that it still has to this day, originally to set their own standards, but in reality to simply introduce standards proposed by the EPA a year earlier. The EPA figured this was a practical way to do things, phasing in technology for 50 states over 2 years instead of 1.

Cat original timetable were proposed for all 50 states by 1975. Which meant California would have had cats in 1974. But it got shifted. So 74 is a kind of stand still year in some ways though california went ahead and lowered NOx emission levels. A by product of lowered NOx levels was an increase in C0 levels. Cats would have lowered the C0 and turned it into C02 and HC into C02 and H20. They took the C0 hit from no cats for one year in order to drop the NOx which was a major ingredient of smog.

Thats why the 73 California 1.7s have unleaded engines. They are getting ready to take the cats the next year in 74. The unleaded part of the timetable stayed on track.

In 74 all the engines in 50 states go unleaded capable for all cars.

A second reason for unleaded which i never realised is that the lower compression ratios of unleaded engines also lowered NOx emissions as they ran at lower combustion temps.

so i think something goes on with 74 1.8s where they get them ready to be a cat equiped 1.8 and a non cat 1.8 but it never happens in reality until 75. but the evidence gets left behind.

in the end its all in how the throttle body hoses get hooked up to the distributor.
the TBs have both ports (or have the capacity to have both ports) they are just used differently from cat cars to non cat cars in 75.

there is a bit of evidence on this website from threads 10 or more years ago about the different ways the TBs on 74 1.8s were hooked up to the vacuum advance/retard distributors - it seems in a variety of ways. i think that is what the different throttle bodies are about. whether or not a port was capped or non capped and whether it was hooked up or not hooked up.

the port operating off manifold vacuum and connected to the retard port on the distributor would achieve the low NOx at idle level (via retarded timing at idle) if the state required it (california?).

the other port operating off vacuum at part throttle and connected to the advance port on the distributor is a fairly standard form of vacuum advance for fuel efficiency and economy. likely to have remained hooked up on all cars for all 50 states?

i think early on with the 1.8s they might have been playing around with it as variables.
but by the time you get to something like my car or starbears they just hook them all up and make it basically a 50 state car (and from then on only offer a 50 state car?).

still does not quite explain the A or B sticker. but the interesting thing about the A or B sticker is both cars are 50 state compliant - and from what i can tell in the photos the A car (blue car on mr. b website) is the same as our B cars. I can see the distributor hookup, its the same, and i can see the engine bay charcoal can, its the same.

a further possibility for the A or B on the sticker is that it refers to a engine group test batch standard. the cars were certified by agreed to tests of vehicles taken off the production line at specified intervals conducted by the manufacturer and submitted to the EPA and or CARB. These were the full tests that measured HC, CO and NOx concentrations (as distinct from simpler annual exhaust checks required of owners).
Its possible that EC-A and EC-B might mean that vw/porsche did two separate such tests for the EC engine, both of which in the end conform to all 50 states, but have different paperwork. the sticker indicates which test a particular engine fitted in the car conforms to. The difference may be because there is minor variation/or even just a second test of the same variation?

I say this because apparently that is what the engine group code on the sticker really means. it means the manufacturers engine group, but a little more - the manufacturers engine group test for EPA and CARB certification purposes.

For there to be a california 1,8 and a non california 1.8 there has to be somewhere an emission sticker that says EPA approved only? its going to be something other than EC-A or EC-B (they both say california + EPA).

It could be for instance EC? a sticker photo drive amongst members with 1.8s might find what is there.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear .

further thought on what the H on TB means.

It means the H variant - but is also on the L variant.
H is listed as the 49 state variant - for MY 1974 - see parts catalogue listing.

see photo (attached) from thread about rebuilding 1.8 throttle bodies.
photo shows TB with H stamped has blocked port (undrilled) which if opened would take a vacuum hose to the retard side of distributor in some cars - eg our cars (or all californian cars).
looks exactly the same as the TB on my car, same PN, man. identification and H, apart from that port being not opened up.





You won't find the L variant, at least not with L stamped on it?
all they do for the L variant is drill out the idle retard port on the H variant parent casting, insert a coupling tube and then package it in a box with L variant identified on labelling?

To put it simply, wonki and starbear have L variant TBs for 74 (which parts manual says is californian 1.8 part) - its an H with the port drilled out?
i don't think you would go and make a separate casting just to have an L stamped on it.
you just use the parent part and do a further operation on it.

[wonkipop]

difference between a 74 1.8 throttle body and a 75 1.8.

for 75 the area around the idle screw is enlarged and forms a bigger mass of metal including around the base of throttle valve spindle.

74 (from my car, 067A - 2 vac ports)



75 (067C - image does not make clear if 1 or 2 vac ports).




found so far.

1974
067A (H) with one vac port.
067A (H) with two vac port. probably the L variant in PET?

1975
067C (no further information re ports or variant)

changes around idle screw probable reason for 2 new variants listed in PET for 75.
2 variants could be a repeat of 74. i port/2port.
or could be different. need more info for 75s.

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

breakthrough?

1. example from your exceptional cars on website.
74 1.8. build early Jan 74. emission sticker is EC-A California + 49 States.




engine tune sticker. note hoses are shown on these stickers - and indicate whether hose is on or off for setting initial idle. sticker indicates hoses off as per 1.8 tune. only 1 hose is shown.





2. wonki car.
74 1.8 build end of jan 74. emission sticker is EC-B california + 49 States.




engine tune sticker. sticker indicates hoses off as per 1.8 tune instructions. 2 hoses are shown. (the sticker is heat/age damaged but you can still see the two hoses).




i never looked at these things closely before for different VWs. eg examples of tune up stickers for late model buses. these have idle set with hoses on. tune up sticker shows that. dumb cartoons but deadly accurate.








conclusion.

EC-A (cali + 49 states) has 1 vac hose connected from dist to TB.
which one i am not sure yet, its hard to tell from photos of engine bay of blue 74 on your website.

EC-B (cali + 49 states) has two vacuum hoses connected from dist to TB.
wonki + StarBear cars.
advance dist (left) to advance TB (rear of car). retard dist (right) to retard TB (front of car)


(god is in the details - mies van der rohe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )


now whats an EC-B that is only 49 states?
you have one of those stickers on your website.

-----------

EDIT - re marathon blue car on your website mr. b
i have looked hard at the images of the engine bay on your website.
interesting stencilled engine number too - 607 maybe, but first letter is degraded and illegible.
what i can see with a reasonable degree of certainty is that it runs a vacuum hose from the distributor advance side to the TB port facing rear of car (advance at cruise).
BUT thats not what the tune up sticker is saying. its saying one hose only. further disconnect retard hose on distributor at idle tune up setting so thats the only hose. (if there was a second fully connected hose VW practice with the stickers would be to show second hose and to show it connected) which means it should have a hose connected only to the retard side of TB. further its saying there is no advance line connected. (which given other accounts of distributor hoses would mean there was a hose on distributor but it was left lying open and tucked under the dist). so something is inconsistent between sticker and engine as photographed. i doubt anyone would change an emission sticker or a engine tune up sticker. (its possible - however they both look aged/original but in good condition). more likely would be throttle body/vac connection changed/modified along the way.
need other examples to nail this one.
but it is an EC-A stickered car. and tune sticker indicates only vacuum retard activated, not vacuum advance. those two clues are saying that much about an EC-A car.

[wonkipop]

a bit more information re EC engines in USA cars.

the 74 412 ran L jet alongside the 1.8 914.
i found an image of an original EC in a 412 Variant.
its a very different setup to the 914.

1. the 412s ran EGR in 74! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
2. far as i can tell (not 100% on this) from image the EGR was connected to a TB port on forward facing side of throttle body (using orientation of the TB in a 914 - to rear of car in 412). the vacuum line from the EGR connected to the cast bump directly below the idle screw (see images above of 914 throttle body). the bump below was left undrilled and not used as it was in some 914s for idle retard. they drilled out the upper bump and fitted a coupling. the vacuum line to this port also tee-ed off near the TB and ran to a second port in the intake manifold plenum.
3. the distributor was not a dual vac chamber advance/retard but had only a single vacuum advance chamber. the vacuum advance hose connected to the TB port on the rearward side of throttle body ( using orientation of TB in 914). as per some 74 914 the port is being used at cruise to advance for fuel economy.
4. the tune up sticker had a dist diagram with only one hose drawn and it was shown connected for idle setup.

i could not see an emissions sticker in the image i found. this engine would have had a version of the 914 classifications? ie either plain EC or EC-letter identifier. all 74 412s were fitted with the EC engine. very hard to find further information on the 412.

it is interesting how different it is. that it is running EGR before the 914 does. and it has a different set up for the EGR. i am not entirely sure how it works on the 412 but i think it might be recirculating exhaust gas at idle but also it is able to do it at cruise. i believe the 75 914 would have recirculated EG at cruise.

a 412 only ran an auto box in the usa so set up was probably tailored to engine characteristics for the gearbox?

[wonkipop]

i did some more trawling through older car ads still around on internet.
found this example of 74 1.8.

no emission sticker/engine stencilled number in images unfortunately.
but has following.

1. tune up sticker with two hoses to dist as per wonki/starbear/van b cars.
2. vin number date 02/74. its about 700 cars after wonki car.
3. it was sold new in mississippi (so not a california car).

a pity no emission sticker image was available to 100% confirm what EC-? it was and how it was listed as being compliant.

[wonkipop]

SUMMARY OF POSITIONS OF VACUUM HOSES BY EXPERTS.

This helps summarise what can be known with some certainty about the variable vacuum hose layouts.

Version 1.
the late Cap'n Krusty.
credentials are impeccable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
he states both ports on dist connected to both ports on TB.
both ports on TB are opened up in casting.
he lives and works in california.
he works on a 1.8 L jet before it hits the showrooms.
see posts extracted from thread date (2010)
he is seeing cali cars from the start - they are as per wonki, starbear and van b.
EC-B (California and EPA emissions sticker).





Version 2.
Clay Perrine.
credentials impeccable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
he states only the retard vac port on dist is connected to retard vac port on TB.
advance port on TB is capped/closed.
retard port is opened up and connected to retard on dist.
vacuum advance line on dist is on but tucked under dist and left open.
see posts extracted from thread date (2019)




Dr. 914 backs this up.
he'd know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
adds that version 2 comes into effect jan 01 74.
versions 1 are being made after jan 01 74 so does not necessarily supersede.



this would fit with marathon blue car = EC-A.
EC-A is California and EPA emissions sticker.
Fits with marathon blue car idle tune sticker though not with hose layout now on car in photos.


Version 3.
others claim there is a TB with an open advance port and a closed retard port.
only the advance on the distributor is hooked up to TB.
in this type the retard hose is fitted to the distributor and is tucked underneath.
though it looked like zonedoubt's car is a 75 and has a 067C TB.
however there is an image of a 067A TB with the same configuration so they likely do exist in 74.




--------

There is known to be an EC-B emission sticker and it is only 49 states / EPA.
Not california certified.
At present i cannot link it to any of the three versions.
There would be a idle tune sticker to go with it showing only a hose to right of dist on tune up sticker if version 3 is EC-B 49 states?

---------

Below images of what each version of TB would look like.

I have seen images of version 1 and version 3.
I have not seen images of version 2. i'm guessing its advance port is blocked or capped somehow.

[StarBear]

Hmmmm…. Thinking I should add the two unconnected vac lines to my tune up sticker repro. What do you think, @wonkipop ? I’ll check the master image from which I developed the repro.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear .
depends how fanatical you want to be adding the hoses.
your stickers look pretty darn good the way they are.

i have never noticed my old one had hoses.
i picked it up looking at the sticker section on mr. b's site.
saw the one with only one hose.
thought hang on. went into the garage and looked at what was left of mine.
saw two........easy to just mistake them for wrinkles or scratch marks - another 914 rabbit hole.

[wonkipop]

last night i did a bit of reading up on 1973.
not 914 history, but broad history.

i was only 13 at the time - probably why i can't remember much besides kicking footballs, playing cricket and general running around aussie kids did!
(but there was an oil crisis in aus, i remember my father not being able to get enough fuel and we had to stop using the "big" holden and start going everywhere in my mothers beetle).

74 MY production starts beginning sept 1973.
(think thats right).


Yom Kippur War begins oct 6 1973.



does not come out of nowhere, had been building for 4 months prior.



oil producing arab nations immediately impose oil embargo at beginning of war.
targeting western nations supporting israel. sparking first oil crisis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)



in response to oil shortage and rationing president nixon imposes nationwide 55 mph speed limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) november 23 1973.



within space of first 2-3 months of 1974 MY 914 production there is no petrol,
no speeding.

perfect storm - intersects with the imposition of stricter emissions limits in both california and to some extent the other 49 states.
(i believe california is a very important market for porsche at that time, roughly 50% of sales in the USA are to california, think i have that right - and 75% of all porsches are sold in the USA - remaining 25% rest of world and germany).

----------

porsche must have seen the events in the middle east coming?
(along with Ford, GM and Chrysler et al).
it had been building as a threat since may 1973.
egypt was rattling its sabre all year prior.

-------------

what i think. just a thesis as they say in research.

EC-A is the car that meets the california emissions target and passes the curbside idle test. it has retarded timing at idle to lower NOx emissions at standing idle.

EC-B is also the car that meets the california emissions target but in addition has extra vacuum advance of timing at cruise for fuel economy.

Both scenarios are completed at the time the cars are being prepared for production?
Represent two possibilities both of which pass CARB and EPA and are 50 state compliant.

The EC-A is probably the preferred variant? - but with fuel economy potentially a big issue about to become bigger, vw and porsche choose EC-B as the one to go first on sale?

The EC-B car (starbear/wonki/van B) has slight driveability issues when compared to the EC-A car? doesn't come down off throttle as well or drive as smoothly at part throttle as the EC-A version? some people do say this with 1.8s. and its complicated territory. the decel valve is also implicated in driveability issues at that exact time, 73-74.

Richard Nixon's imposition of 55 mph speed limit renders fuel economy a moot point.

most cars are going to be a lot more economical at 55, its the efficiency point where air resistance doesn't kick in hard and the engine is just loping along.

after Nov 73, vw and porsche don't have to worry about fuel economy at high speed cruise? there is no high speed cruise (legally speaking).

They bring EC-A back into play and the cars start having that set up. (accords with dr. 914 and his view that EC-A starts in jan 74). EC-A drives a little sweeter?

interestingly - its not hard for dealers to plug and play between EC-A or EC-B.
just pull a hose and plug throttle body advance port. both scenarios are legal as both are california/EPA approved. doesn't matter about the sticker, thats just the way the car comes initially set up. its a legal mod and legal variation. dealers/mechanics would have known for sure how they could play with the car to make a customer happy and stay within the emissions laws.

?????

------

49 state car. this is the hardest one to work out.
reason being they were certainly selling a 50 state car in places other than california -so why have a 49 state car and why sell a 50 state car in a 49 state.
it has advance only on dist and throttle body?
for fuel economy at high speed cruise?
no retard at idle - not necessary - 49 states did not have the harsher standard for curb idle? car does not run as hot at idle either with no idle retard.
the sticker distinguishes these cars not by EC-A or EC-B - it indicates what it is by only having EPA compliance shown on sticker.

??????? more info/research needed on the 49 state car. a bit thin on ground.

-------

A does not equal USA and B does not equal california.
(evidence is that both A and B are California + EPA).

A does not come before B in chronological time.
(evidence and claims by people who would know for sure says B comes before A).

what A and B are is two possibilities for 74 MY in a very difficult time and environment?
A = emissions compliant and superior driveability (might have been subtle?).
B = emissions complaint and fuel economy (has the edge at high speed cruise?).

vw and porsche have the two options up their sleeve.
and flip for B to begin with?
by late november 1973 any "advantages" B has are rendered marginal by nixon 55mph.
A gets introduced back into the picture.

---------

its only a thesis. ready to be pulled apart.

but the 1.8 is interesting in my view because its the first time L jet is used.
and it is born into a first oil crisis and a first pollution crisis.


---------

still don't have an answer to engine paint stamp codes - original question.

but looks like an EC-B could be either a 604 or a 605.

it looks like an EC-A could be a 607 engine stamp? but only one example so far to go off.

[StarBear]

My head and brain hurt….. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[wonkipop]

@StarBear - not as much as mine did trying to work it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

never understood the retarded ignition at idle until going through this and looking at VanB's problem. (i used to stare at the double vac distributor on my 1.8 30 years ago and wonder WTF it was doing).

everyone focuses on 1.8s as being an emission response design.
which they are.

but we forget the oil crisis.

there was more going on back then than just the EPA killing off engine horsepower.
motoring life got real complicated for six months from oct 73 to mar 74.

[wonkipop]

@StarBear

here is the quick summary version.

EC-B
we have the emission compliant / high speed cruise economy version.
put simply. (its a blunt simplification but its basically what happens).
retard to retard = emission
advance to advance = cruise economy.

EC-A
that is the emission compliant / sweeter driveability off throttle part throttle version.
retard to retard = emission.
no advance = sweeter twisties in the mountains driving.

both are 50 state compliant.
only emission compliance was legally enforceable.
both had to have that.

fuel economy was a free choice strategy.
all they had to do was prove that either versions difference with advance did not adversely effect idle emissions. certification test would have proved that.

fuel economy version only becomes evident in high speed cruising.
by that i mean 80 mph all day on ze indashtaaate.
(some sources say 10%, some as much as 20%, you are going to notice at your wallet).
but difference disappears once you can't do more than 55 mph.
so you may as well go sweet driving option.

my thesis is.
porsche first wanted to do EC-A. the sweet driving. its the purist position.
then they thought again about that because of anwar sadat and his mates in the middle east.
so they went EC-B to begin with.
but 3 months later tricky dicky nixon stepped in anyway and made the call irrelevant when he stopped the fun and made everyone crawl.
so they went to EC-A after all, after xmas. at least you could have fun in the mountains.

------

need EC-A and EC-B version stickers with 49 state certification and intact original hose set up or tune stickers to know what that really is for sure.
but suspect has no retard function activated, only advance function.
and suspect there is an EC-A version of that as well.
already know there was an EC-B version floating around.

-------


once you get your head around the distributor and what its doing with the throttle body,
the rest of the detail above makes sense. that was just me collected the evidence of whats out there. and trying to make sense of it.

funny enough dave darling did make sense of this 10 or more years ago.
but no-one was reading him closely enough.
back then he took everyone at their word, about the different versions,
and just laid it out in practical terms, what each version would do.
he didn't manage to address chronology.

the chronology is the bit that on first glance does not make any sense.
ie. why would B come before A?
thats the bit that was doing my head in.


-----

and i haven't even talked about 75 MY cars.
which all got mixed into previous discussions a long time back on this site.
and that mixing up did not help people sort out question.

but i have worked that one out as well? maybe? its just a guess.

the EC-B which we have.
went on to evolve in 75 and use the advance port on the TB to run the EGR.
one of the benefits of EGR is it not only reduces NOx emission at cruise by making combustion cooler - it gives you a slight increase in fuel economy.
so the EC-B style strategy came back in the 75 cali cars.
retard to retard for emission at idle.
EGR to advance for emission and economy at cruise.

driveability probably went to hell. i don't know. never driven one.

the 75 49 states is a little less clear.
it does not have a cat as the obvious thing.
but i think its got nothing.
its just got retard at idle and thats all.
i need to find more images to study and verify.

[StarBear]

Yep; that sums it up nicely! Interested to see with more data on other early-mid 74 1.8s.
Do you have all the info and pics you need for mine?
Meanwhile, I've pulled up the base image that I used for the tuneup sticker; it has just the one (retard) hose as shown here. Really did look like a smudge or Sharpie scribble. With the two variations for 1.8s, I think I'll just keep the "base" version, without the hose(s), so as not to confuse someone who should have two hoses. @Van B

[wonkipop]

Yep; that sums it up nicely! Interested to see with more data on other early-mid 74 1.8s.
Do you have all the info and pics you need for mine?
Meanwhile, I've pulled up the base image that I used for the tuneup sticker; it has just the one (retard) hose as shown here. Really did look like a smudge or Sharpie scribble. With the two variations for 1.8s, I think I'll just keep the "base" version, without the hose(s), so as not to confuse someone who should have two hoses. @Van B

where did the image of the tuneup sticker come from @StarBear ?

i take it that was not yours.
someone has an EC-A that provided it?
contact them for details of engine set up?

definitely leave your sticker alone.

[StarBear]

Yep; that sums it up nicely! Interested to see with more data on other early-mid 74 1.8s.
Do you have all the info and pics you need for mine?
Meanwhile, I've pulled up the base image that I used for the tuneup sticker; it has just the one (retard) hose as shown here. Really did look like a smudge or Sharpie scribble. With the two variations for 1.8s, I think I'll just keep the "base" version, without the hose(s), so as not to confuse someone who should have two hoses. @Van B

where did the image of the tuneup sticker come from @StarBear ?

i take it that was not yours.
someone has an EC-A that provided it?
contact them for details of engine set up?

definitely leave your sticker alone.

From a forum member. Will check back on the thread.
Yeah; sticker is good (and generic) enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)